[14:00] pimmhogeling: Welcome, all
[14:00] pimmhogeling: emmanueloga, Lazygekko, Juan__, gianpi
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[14:07] alijaya: waiting
[14:08] elemen3: Any idea for running haXe apps on Solaris and OpenSolaris right now or on the future?
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[14:09] Huge: justin - nexus, hey. Looks like you have a java target to write - or does it run native code?
[14:12] justinfront_: People have compiled ocaml on it... I was wondering about native haxe and neko.
[14:12] justinfront_: apparently you can sort of run c++ on it
[14:14] heinz: more about c++ on android: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/android-goes-beyond-java-gains-native-cc-dev-kit.ars
[14:18] justinfront_: http://sites.google.com/site/keigoattic/ocaml-on-android
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[14:23] justinfront_: The textmate bundle is the most extensive I have seen, but not actually tried code yet. http://www.onebitwonder.com/projects/android/tutorial
[14:23] Huge: so it does look possible - but I don't think is is a "consumer" thing. You could write an app for yourself, but not give it to your mum.
[14:25] tonypolinelli (n=chatzill@60-242-142-232.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #haxe
[14:25] justinfront_: The android has "Market' its apparently already got similar coverage on apps to the iphone app store. Android is linux based and my mobile is not tied to a network so its pushing personal control of the mobile space which traditionally is rather tied up
[14:27] justinfront_: surely once neko can be compiled you can use it to create apps you can compile to run on another phone maybe not?
[14:29] tonypolinelli: i highly doubt that the adroid market is as large as iphone atm, but that is a guess. Do they have a setup store like the App Store?
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[14:30] aho: Dykam, we got echelog running http://echelog.matzon.dk/?haxe
[14:30] aho: <:
[14:31] EdoRivai: Dykam is not here xD
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[14:32] pimmhogeling (n=Pimm@ip4da8ab80.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #haxe
[14:32] justinfront_: its called android market
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[14:34] justinfront_: As I posted to the mailing list.. it would be good if we could get haxe or hscript working with this http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
[14:35] justinfront_: aho did Dykam do that in haXe?
[14:35] aho: ?:)
[14:36] aho: nah... he talked about logging the meeting eventually... therefore i told him that it's already logged by that handy bot
[14:37] Huge: I think the problem would be to do with security - java is "safe" for app-store apps, but if you run native code it could be malware
[14:39] Huge: I think the process of getting neko running on iphone would be very similar to ocaml - almost the same as a standard linux port
[14:39] Huge: Once you compile neko, you haxe haxe "scripting"
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[14:39] tonypolinelli: hah haxe = have?
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[14:40] Huge: too much haxe - normally I get it the other way around - doing a bit of "haxe" programming
[14:40] Huge: or "hace" or "have"
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[14:41] tonypolinelli: there wouldnt be too much benefit gettin neko on iphone anyway would there?
[14:41] heinz: android scripting is already working for javascript, so we just need a wrapper for the api
[14:42] heinz: as stated here: Scripts can be run interactively in a terminal, started as a long running service, or started via Locale. Python, Perl, JRuby, Lua, BeanShell, JavaScript, and shell are currently supported, and we're planning to add more.
[14:43] heinz: but maybe i'm off the track
[14:43] tonypolinelli: surely allowing scripts has to leave open a huge security hole for malware - unless they check the scripts like the facebook api
[14:43] tonypolinelli: are these scripts allowed for android-store apps?
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[14:45] [hx]Nicolas (n=ncannass@che33-4-82-233-72-200.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #haxe
[14:45] [hx]Nicolas: Hello, World !
[14:46] aho: bonjour
[14:46] tonypolinelli: zzzzzzzzzzzzz!
[14:46] TheHippo: hello....
[14:47] heinz: hi nicolas
[14:47] zproxy has left freenode ()
[14:47] iain: hi
[14:48] brunob: hi there
[14:48] bigarobas: hi
[14:48] Lazygekko: afternoon :)
[14:49] alijaya: night :D
[14:49] alijaya: 22.00 here >.<
[14:50] slaskis (n=slaskis@c80-216-160-76.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #haxe
[14:50] [hx]Nicolas: 10 minutes to go ;)
[14:51] fponticelli (n=fpontice@a95-95-133-28.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #haxe
[14:51] tonypolinelli: 2am here- toughen up alijaya ;P
[14:51] ciscoheat (n=Miranda@d83-183-242-246.cust.tele2.se) has joined #haxe
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[14:52] alijaya: haha :p
[14:52] pkplas (n=sdfsdf@cpc1-cmbg14-2-0-cust76.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #haxe
[14:52] iain: 2am is when programmers are *supposed* to be awake :P
[14:52] tong_: hi
[14:52] ciscoheat: hello
[14:52] Juan__: wow, tony , that's haxe commitment : )
[14:52] mbaczynski: hello!
[14:52] pkplas: hi everyone
[14:52] pkplas is now known as zjnue
[14:52] slaskis: hey all :)
[14:52] tonypolinelli: gotta see what you guys have to yabber on about
[14:53] fponticelli: tony is not human ... see his facebook profile and you will understand ;)
[14:53] [hx]Nicolas: link pliz
[14:53] [hx]Nicolas: :)
[14:53] tonypolinelli: bahah- true ;P
[14:53] tonypolinelli: tonypee
[14:55] Huge: offtopic with some time to kill - anyone interested in the "waxe" wx/haxe integration project
[14:55] [hx]Nicolas: 4pm here, trying to fix a multithread lock bug in a new Tora feature ^^;
[14:55] Juan__: i am interested in waxe : )
[14:56] ciscoheat: Huge: Yes, very!
[14:56] slaskis: Huge: sounds really interesting i think
[14:56] fponticelli: indeed it is an interesting project and a tutorial would be great ;)
[14:56] zjnue: waxe looks really cool Hugh
[14:56] Juan__: actually, added the RSS for the SVN commits to my reader
[14:56] heinz: yep interested
[14:56] justinfront_: yes will it work on a mac ;
[14:56] fponticelli: Juan__ me too ;)
[14:57] Huge: re tutorial - still in early dev, but following the wx path closely (except use properties and closures for much better reading)
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[14:57] Juan__: also been taking a look to wxwidgets, and surprised they also target WinCe and some other apart from the big 3
[14:58] EdoRivai: Of all people in this room, pimmhogeling wins it cause he's sexy
[14:58] Pignoufou (i=d9805e71@gateway/web/freenode/x-ohdnrzywiznnxlmx) has joined #haxe
[14:58] [hx]Nicolas: wx have been out for a looong time
[14:58] zjnue: more offtopic : anyone using eclihx? the eclipsee4 idea looks good and flexsclipse project does something similar in as. i think that was an idea (online ide) for haxegui also. gershon here?
[14:58] Huge: yes wx has beed around
[14:58] Pignoufou: (Hello :))
[14:59] Aduros (n=bruno@75-119-250-143.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #haxe
[14:59] pimmhogeling: Hello Pin
[14:59] pimmhogeling: Pignoufou,
[14:59] Pignoufou: zjnue: I bet we could implement a web-based IDE via something like CodeMirror
[14:59] pimmhogeling: Is niel-grumpytoad present, yet?
[14:59] heinz: waxe in combination with nme/neash would be a killer framework ;), native compiled flash apps on the desktop (cross os)
[14:59] [14:59] [hx]Nicolas: let's make a quick trpoll : what is you haXe IDE ? :)
[14:59] ***Aduros wakes up early for haxe
[14:59] zjnue: i'll check it out. the googlecode project i mentioned is actually "flexeclipse"
[14:59] Huge: justin - got mac port going. Seems I have to have neko in a ".app" folder - not sure what's going on there.
[14:59] slaskis: [hx]Nicolas: textmate for me
[15:00] Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: TextMate
[15:00] Aduros: [hx]Nicolas: vim
[15:00] iain: geany here
[15:00] justinfront_: textmate
[15:00] tonypolinelli: flashdevelop
[15:00] mbaczynski: FlashDevelop
[15:00] ciscoheat: FlashDevelop
[15:00] Huge: gvim
[15:00] fmjrey: jedit
[15:00] zjnue: old eclihaxe of illey on eclipse here
[15:00] fponticelli: FlashDevelop
[15:00] brunob: FDevelop
[15:00] tong_: eclipse
[15:00] [hx]Nicolas: still FD 2.x for me
[15:00] Juan__: textmate / FD here
[15:00] bigarobas: plashdevelop
[15:01] Pignoufou: Talking about IDEs, I would like to see them all using a build system based on hxml since this is the official haXe build system
[15:01] Juan__: nicolas, is it because 2.x still uses haxe compiler for completition?
[15:01] fmjrey: Actually I beefed jedit with my own plugins to make haxe dev easier
[15:01] fmjrey: se http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=201001281351.44741.jedit-devel@francois.rey.name&forum_name=jedit-devel
[15:01] [hx]Nicolas: 3.x also have haxe completion
[15:01] alijaya: xcode *with no plugin >.<
[15:01] [hx]Nicolas: but no multi-target project
[15:02] [hx]Nicolas: and I like to compile client+server together
[15:02] tonypolinelli: 3.x has so many great features- i just get a post command to call haxe build.hxml for a proper build
[15:02] Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: I've quite surprised to see that FD doesn't use hxml files... that makes it impossible to move a textmate project to FD
[15:02] heinz: 3.x svn has compiler completion on demand, which brings better performance on big projects
[15:02] Pignoufou: (and this is although we DO have a standard defined)
[15:02] [hx]Nicolas: Filt3r has been working on FD3 haXe plugin, I think it works well
[15:02] fponticelli: I found having 2 projects in the same directory is convenient in FD ... you switch with a doubleclick
[15:03] [hx]Nicolas: yes, I agree that haXe IDE support should at least enable to generate an HXML
[15:04] fmjrey: re: IDE, I think efforts must go into getting a proper *cross-platform* IDE
[15:04] justinfront_: i am hoping the sort e-texteditor out for linux, the android bundle really shows what power a plugin could have.
[15:04] [hx]Nicolas: we can't have one single IDE that fits everybody needs, so better have wide support ;)
[15:04] [hx]Nicolas: anyway, we will get started soon I guess
[15:05] pimmhogeling: I guess so, too
[15:05] pimmhogeling: Should niel-grumpytoad start off?
[15:05] justinfront_: Niel can't make it so he asked me to cover
[15:05] justinfront_:
[15:06] fmjrey: i would point out again the idea of running haxe compiler (ocaml) in java, see http://haxe.org/forum/thread/648
[15:06] pimmhogeling: justinfront_, will you lead the meeting, then?
[15:06] justinfront_: Nicolas the creator of haXe would you like to tell us about your future plans for haxe
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: ah ;) not just me
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: but anyway, let's get started !
[15:07] slaskis: yay!
[15:07] justinfront_: * haXe compiler: present (2.05) and future !
[15:07] justinfront_: Nicolas Cannasse, Franco Ponticelli, Hugh Sanderso
[15:07] tonypolinelli: n
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: first, nice to see you there :)
[15:07] niel-grumpytoad: hello, am back
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: hi niel
[15:07] niel-grumpytoad: thanks for coming all
[15:08] niel-grumpytoad: the principal compiler writers are there
[15:08] niel-grumpytoad: excellent.. so I guess you can begin talking about the new haXe features ?
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(05:06:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: sure !
(05:06:59 PM) [hx]Nicolas: in case you don't know, we have setup a page on the haxe wiki
(05:07:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: http://haxe.org/com/features
(05:07:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: this is a place were we gather ideas about future language/compiler features
(05:08:09 PM) Aduros: *cheers for swc input*
(05:08:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it helps us to have some feedback about them BEFORE they are actually implemented
(05:08:24 PM) Huge: I must say that I did not rate MultiTypes, but they would make a good alternative to overloaded constructors for the wx code i've been doing.
(05:08:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and to have enough time to think about pro/cons of each feature
(05:09:04 PM) Huge: You will be my hero if you can pull off Removal of Temporary Stack Objects
(05:09:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Also, one of the goals of haXe is to keep the syntax (almost) as much simple as it is right now
(05:09:19 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so we definitly don't want to bloat the language
(05:09:34 PM) heinz: metadata would be fantastic and opens a lot of possibilities
(05:09:44 PM) heinz: without changing the language
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(05:10:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes, metadata requires a bit more syntax, but does not get in the way with other expressions
(05:10:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: explaining everything would take quite a lot of time, so maybe we should just go with questions/answers ?
(05:11:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Feel free to ask anything about past, current and future haXe :)
(05:11:27 PM) Huge: I am interested in the general feeling about pre-processor - or has it been ruled out in favour of macros?
(05:11:37 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree with Huge
(05:11:42 PM) Pignoufou: Instead of developping the language, which is already quite mature, wouldn't it be more interesting to develop frameworks?
(05:11:45 PM) iain: yes, i'm all for the preprocessor
(05:12:08 PM) iain: (or an interface for preprocessors)
(05:12:22 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I'm not a big fan of preprocessors, although I us it a lot in C.
(05:12:40 PM) pimmhogeling: Could you explain why you're no big fan of them?
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(05:12:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: The main issue is that everybody does some custom syntax changes to the language with preprocessors
(05:12:47 PM) justinfront_: Pignoufou : agreed I would like flex cross platform alternative but maybe later discussion.
(05:12:48 PM) Lazygekko: as a total beginner, please could the documentation and examples be looked at?
(05:12:51 PM) slaskis: wouldn't the macro feature be some kind of preprocessor?
(05:12:51 PM) Pignoufou: I have to be against preprocessors, as that makes me feel like the toolchain may change depending from people
(05:12:57 PM) [hx]Nicolas: which makes code sharing a big issue
(05:13:11 PM) Aduros: No scalable language has a preprocessor...
(05:13:11 PM) pimmhogeling: True
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(05:13:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: OCaml has something called Camlp4
(05:14:00 PM) [hx]Nicolas: which enable you to define new syntax rules on-the-fly
(05:14:07 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's pretty powerful but maybe too much
(05:14:22 PM) Huge: You dis' C/C++ as being non-scalable, but in reality, what is the biggest prog that has been written in haxe?
(05:14:26 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I'm quite conservative about syntax since it's the common language for all haXe'rs out there
(05:14:52 PM) ciscoheat: Sorry if it has been discussed before, but there is no mention of coroutines on the feature page?
(05:15:27 PM) fmjrey: preprocessors would make it harder for ide implementation too!
(05:15:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: My proposal wrt preprocessors are "macros" (as described on the future page)
(05:19:29 PM) The topic for #haxe is: haXe - http://haxe.org | web oriented universal language
(05:19:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it's a bit hard to sort through questions, we really need a custom thing for next meeting :)
(05:19:58 PM) ***Dykam is here
(05:19:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, we do
(05:20:04 PM) niel-grumpytoad: maybe it is worth looking at the "with" syntax first
(05:20:06 PM) pimmhogeling: I'd fly everyone here if I had the money
(05:20:26 PM) heinz: what information about classes and types is available in a macro, only context stuff?
(05:20:26 PM) ciscoheat: Turn on moderation and let someone sort out questions? ;)
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(05:20:49 PM) EdoRivai: I'd fly anymhere if I had the money
(05:21:04 PM) niel-grumpytoad: is it a feature people generally want, or was it a one-time request from someone ?
(05:21:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: heinz > I guess we can make all types informations available in a macro
(05:21:41 PM) heinz: so we can possible pass a script to a macro which is compiled to native code
(05:22:04 PM) justinfront_: one-time request from someone ?
(05:22:21 PM) fmjrey: question: sorry to go back to ide, but i feel the "no ide fits everyone's" need is too dismissive of the issue. Couldn't there be ways of having the haxe compiler more supportive of ide implementation?
(05:22:25 PM) slaskis: niel-grumpytoad: which feature do you mean?
(05:22:40 PM) justinfront_: with
(05:22:53 PM) Huge: As for with syntax - I would be happy to see it in the language
(05:22:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: fmjrey > yes, work on it :)
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(05:23:01 PM) heinz: with is just an example which can be implemented by a macro
(05:23:15 PM) niel-grumpytoad: well, the one posted on the ML - you have a special symbol "with"
(05:23:51 PM) iain: would macros be able to store global data throughout the compilation process?
(05:23:54 PM) Huge: Yes, but not seriously?
(05:24:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: iain > yes
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(05:24:30 PM) iain: good to know :)
(05:25:04 PM) tonypolinelli: fmjrey > it is already very supportive. We just need someone to get excited about eclipse. There is also a monodevelop thread for flashdevelop which has promise of making flashdevelop crossplatform
(05:25:50 PM) waneck: On the macro topic, couldn't we extend the macro possibilities to include also some kind of operator overloading?
(05:26:07 PM) slaskis: personally I'd never use a 'with' syntax, never used it while developing flash either
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(05:26:13 PM) justinfront_: e-textmate/textmate is also possible cross platform and bundles can be used better.
(05:26:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: huge > as for "with" syntax, I'm not a big fan : it's a pure syntax feature which doesn't bring any benefit in itself and has severe drawbacks when properties are mixed with locals. I proposed a "copyFields" on the mailing list which enable to copy all fields of an object to another with structural subtyping
(05:26:35 PM) waneck: I've ran into some issues where I could use an array syntax [] on some platforms (or compiler directives), but not on others...
(05:27:05 PM) fmjrey: I would work on it, but would take too much time for me and I have other priorities. But I do believe someone (e.g. a cs compiler student/researcher) could do great work with running haxe compiler in java to get on-the-fly compilation, code completion, error reporting, etc.
(05:27:06 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree with [hx]Nicolas on this one, the with syntax
(05:27:21 PM) fponticelli: not a fan either
(05:27:23 PM) waneck: it would be cool if we could substitute those behaviours- array access, operators, so some things like Int32 class would be more easier to work with
(05:27:36 PM) slaskis: the current work on the textmate bundle is really nice i think, still a bit buggy with the finding of build.hxml for me but autocompletion works real good
(05:27:45 PM) tonypolinelli: i agree - forget 'with' - should we move on?
(05:27:53 PM) Huge: fair enough - I could take it or leave it.
(05:27:56 PM) heinz: would it be possible to create e4x like extensions for haxe with a macro
(05:28:02 PM) pimmhogeling: We're dismissing with once and for all?
(05:28:06 PM) Juan__: with has been dismissed forever : )
(05:28:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > there's already "using", but no "+" overloading yet, in particular because they would break as soon as Dynamic is used
(05:28:26 PM) waneck: I see,, but using would break as well..
(05:28:29 PM) niel-grumpytoad: yes, how do macros work nicolas ?
(05:28:33 PM) justinfront_: So can we add copyFields to the language
(05:28:40 PM) tonypolinelli: (maybe just forget it for this discussion.. its 30mins so far ;P )
(05:28:40 PM) heinz: if you just pass a string which is transformed by the makro function
(05:28:42 PM) fponticelli: using doesn't work on Dynamic
(05:29:00 PM) waneck: exactly...
(05:29:15 PM) Aduros: Is it safe yet to turn on JIT when using Tora?
(05:29:22 PM) [hx]Nicolas: indeed :)
(05:29:36 PM) Aduros: Nice!
(05:29:56 PM) waneck: so... many things on haxe would break on dynamic introduction
(05:30:03 PM) waneck: e.g. getters and setters themselves
(05:30:07 PM) waneck: also using...
(05:30:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Aduros > we still had a few crashes in Tora+JIT but that's because some app-specific things, it might work better on your box
(05:30:15 PM) waneck: we just have to know that and live with that limitation
(05:30:40 PM) fponticelli: waneck, makes sense ;)
(05:31:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > operator overloading often requires method selection since you might want to implement all the possible cases
(05:31:26 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but OpOver is not hard to do as it
(05:31:44 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it's just a question wether we want to have it in the language or not
(05:32:17 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and, apart from haXe.Int32 and maybe some "Point" stuff, I don't see much use for them
(05:32:33 PM) waneck: I think that since haXe is all about being able to target many platforms, this would greatly help to overcome some problems on that process
(05:32:39 PM) fponticelli: well ... just having it for Int32 would be great ;)
(05:32:44 PM) Dykam: :D
(05:33:01 PM) dazKind [n=mib@norad.solute-gmbh.de] entered the room.
(05:33:02 PM) [hx]Nicolas: we could also directly support basic ops for Int32 in the compiler without OpOver
(05:33:04 PM) johnlindquist [n=johnlind@c-98-202-184-207.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] entered the room.
(05:33:14 PM) fponticelli: that would be enough for me :D
(05:33:28 PM) heinz: +1 for that
(05:33:30 PM) mbaczynski: doing heavy math stuff is a pain without operator overloading, would also speed up quick prototyping
(05:33:31 PM) pimmhogeling: That would be good, but also classes like Point, as you mentioned, could benefit from it
(05:33:57 PM) Dykam: why not immediatly expand it, and just made it convention that if you want to support the (+) operator, you have to supply a function OpAdd(..,..);
(05:34:18 PM) Huge: re: neko int32 - perhaps you could promote int32 into syntax, and implement an extra vaue type in neko. Infact, I don't think there will be a performance loss at all - maybe you can just upgrade neko to 32 bits for all ints?
(05:34:23 PM) Dykam: and throw a error when OpAdd does not exist
(05:34:28 PM) waneck: Also for a possible Int64, for example
(05:34:28 PM) niel-grumpytoad: From the "features" page, I prefer "Constraints in method parameters" and the library cleanup
(05:34:33 PM) zjnue: tentative +1 for opover here still, BigInteger, Int64, more freedoms..
(05:34:37 PM) mbaczynski: like in the D language :) http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/operatoroverloading.html
(05:35:08 PM) mbaczynski: a op b -> a.opFunc(b). like 'using' but more lightweight
(05:35:24 PM) Dykam: for example
(05:35:38 PM) justinfront_: Not following all, but swish has an "add" and "plus" which you can be more clear than "+", that maybe useful?
(05:35:55 PM) pimmhogeling: niel-grumpytoad, cut off the discussion if it gets framey and lengthy, OK?
(05:36:12 PM) waneck: this could also mean the possibility of being able to implement arrayAccess?
(05:36:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes, if we have operator overloading, it will enable to customize all operators including []
(05:36:50 PM) Dykam: that last one would be super sweet
(05:36:52 PM) waneck: this would be very great!
(05:36:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: (as long as not dynamic)
(05:36:57 PM) justinfront_: less clear though
(05:37:10 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree, both super sweet and less clear
(05:37:16 PM) EdoRivai: +1
(05:37:17 PM) iain: +1 for operator overloading
(05:37:18 PM) mbaczynski: +1
(05:37:21 PM) pedromoraes: +1
(05:37:25 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, why not dynamic? as every acces just gets compiled to some conventioned name... every class implementing a func with that name, will work with it
(05:37:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: however, it makes the programs less readable
(05:37:34 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, less readable/clear
(05:37:38 PM) justinfront_: +1 people adding +1 document it :)
(05:37:43 PM) Dykam: never had any problems with less readable apps btw
(05:37:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Dykam > if dynamic, maybe it's an Int
(05:37:51 PM) Dykam: ah
(05:37:57 PM) Dykam: that can indeed be a problem
(05:37:58 PM) waneck: I think that sometimes it makes the program a lot more readable
(05:38:19 PM) mbaczynski: what is more readable? a.add(b).sub(c).mul(d) or a + b - c * d
(05:38:19 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, on JS it is possible to extend the prototype of an int
(05:38:24 PM) pedromoraes: me too, especially in math
(05:38:26 PM) waneck: a simple example is just anything that uses Int32... I get lost so easily
(05:38:26 PM) Dykam: heh mbaczynski, very true
(05:38:36 PM) Huge: The dynamic issue is the same fot using/get/set - we can deal with it.
(05:38:41 PM) Dykam: indeed
(05:38:55 PM) niel-grumpytoad: OK, I think Nicolas can think of a way to make it clearer..
(05:39:11 PM) Dykam: though for get/set it is because you can give the get/set function your own name, and the get/setter can differ per property
(05:39:24 PM) justinfront_: this overload sounds more suited to a macro language that you could use with haXe
(05:39:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Dykam > no, because we have to be xplatform, and most Ints are not objects
(05:40:01 PM) Dykam: indeed...
(05:40:15 PM) Dykam: then it would just be the same as using/get/set
(05:40:26 PM) Huge: yes ints are very efficient on c++ - would be a shame to spoint that.
(05:40:40 PM) Dykam: Huge, it is wrapped in dynamic already anyways
(05:40:46 PM) Dykam: in those cases
(05:40:48 PM) Huge: That said, it could be done at the compiler level like using, so it may work anyway
(05:41:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > I agree that Dynamic issue is the same as get/set, but that's not a reason to spread it all over. The benefit has to be interesting enough to cover the cost ;)
(05:41:23 PM) heinz: It would be great to use in combination with makros like the way i posted it in the newsgroup
(05:41:23 PM) heinz: maybe
(05:41:23 PM) heinz: Math.openContext('
(05:41:31 PM) heinz: and so on
(05:41:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes indeed
(05:41:50 PM) alijaya: what is more readable? a.add(b).sub(c).mul(d) or a + b - c * d <<< i think it must be (a+b-c)*d
(05:42:09 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's not the question
(05:42:30 PM) [hx]Nicolas: there's also some issues with type inference
(05:42:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: function add(x,y) return x + y;
(05:42:48 PM) [hx]Nicolas: will type x and y as Int
(05:43:05 PM) Dykam: atm, yes
(05:43:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it will not allow to pass instances with have overloaded +
(05:43:22 PM) waneck: but the + operator is already overloaded - it could be a string e.g.
(05:43:42 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, why not? what is preventing such a compiler feature
(05:43:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: think about the following
(05:44:27 PM) [hx]Nicolas: all operations + - * / does type inference with either Int or Float
(05:44:44 PM) Huge: (or string for +)
(05:44:50 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, currently yes
(05:44:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes
(05:45:10 PM) Dykam: what's preventing changing that, besides backwards incompatibility
(05:45:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so with OpOper it will fail unless you typed your variables
(05:45:39 PM) [hx]Nicolas: we cannot delay this since it requires generating different code for the compiler
(05:45:45 PM) niel-grumpytoad: can we give the haXe features discussion another 10 minutes, and switch to the community libraries...
(05:45:46 PM) waneck: may be could create an interface like Operatable
(05:46:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: maybe let's move on right now ?
(05:46:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: other questions ?
(05:46:44 PM) pimmhogeling: Other language features people are intested in?
(05:46:55 PM) danielgrad: what about allowing overload only for the array access op?
(05:47:23 PM) Huge: But what is different: function X<A,B>(a:A,b:B) { return a.someFunc(b); }
(05:47:23 PM) heinz: i think metadata is really important, is this already planned or only in discussion
(05:47:38 PM) justinfront_: e4x someone posted something on the forum for cross platform
(05:47:38 PM) Huge: sorry - we've moved on
(05:47:41 PM) Dykam: I agree with heinz
(05:47:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: everything on the "features" page http://haxe.org/com/features is not decided yet
(05:47:59 PM) tonypolinelli: swc import would be great - timeline?
(05:48:11 PM) pimmhogeling: Let's first discuss metadata
(05:48:32 PM) [hx]Nicolas: swc input actually requires metadata and multiple -swf-lib first
(05:49:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: since we need to pass as3-specific stuff (protected/private/namespace/etc) to the backend (with metadata)
(05:49:25 PM) justinfront_: can you put layouts in something like XAML or FLEX in meta data
(05:49:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: clarify ?
(05:49:58 PM) heinz: i think if metadata is implemented than in the java or c# way (with types as arguments, not only strings as in as3)
(05:50:14 PM) Dykam: primitive types
(05:50:28 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but yes, it might be interesting to have all core haXe values as part of metadata
(05:50:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: code generators might use them to perform some specific tasks
(05:50:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but they will also be accessible at runtime
(05:51:11 PM) waneck: specially with the @macro feature
(05:51:28 PM) heinz: only core types or also custom classes as types
(05:51:38 PM) zjnue: is this where full type info can be read live, for say a full haxe interpreter?
(05:51:42 PM) [hx]Nicolas: java annotations syntax is not bad : http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/annotations.html
(05:52:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: zjnue > clarify ?
(05:52:44 PM) jjdonald [n=jjdonald@cpe-24-166-14-75.indy.res.rr.com] entered the room.
(05:52:44 PM) pimmhogeling: Nobody is against adding metadata to the language, or am I missing someone?
(05:53:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: maybe other questions then ? :)
(05:53:21 PM) zjnue: reading all types, not only ones defined with rtti. this may allow to extend hscript with more lang features and support type checking
(05:53:33 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge for haxe/C++ and Franco for haXe/PHP are here too ^^;
(05:53:39 PM) Dykam: pimmhogeling, composed?
(05:54:05 PM) Huge: ready to answer...
(05:54:11 PM) pimmhogeling: What I would like to ask is, what's [hx]Nicolas' oppinion on adding an access level is general
(05:54:22 PM) zjnue: something like this was on the TODO on some stage i believe. not sure if still planned or where it is included in features list
(05:54:22 PM) pimmhogeling: *in general
(05:54:27 PM) fponticelli: :)
(05:54:30 PM) justinfront_: Is it the wrong time to ask about a better solution to loading haXe flash movies into the same domain and trying to improve bad parts of flash.
(05:54:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: zjnue > rtti takes space in generated program, so still be per-class, but we definitely need to find a better way that right now
(05:54:55 PM) waneck: maybe we could use metadata to implement some features that could only make a difference in a specific platform - @protected for flash, and maybe e.g. @final for cpp
(05:55:05 PM) zjnue: ah, thank you
(05:55:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: pimm > what's "an access level" ? :)
(05:55:24 PM) Dykam: internal, private, public, etc
(05:55:26 PM) Huge: No point adding it to cpp - I make eveything public!
(05:55:29 PM) pimmhogeling: public or private, or protected as we've discussed many times
(05:55:59 PM) waneck: no, no.. that's what I meant... a @final keyword would only ake sense for cpp, to generate not-virtual methods
(05:56:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: the philosophy of haXe is not to protect the developer against itself
(05:56:11 PM) Dykam: pimmhogeling and I talked about "composed" or "composing". properties marked with this level would be accesible by itself, inheritors and the classes having a property of this
(05:56:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so public + private seems enough
(05:56:19 PM) Dykam: it would enable easier composition
(05:56:22 PM) pimmhogeling: Right
(05:56:31 PM) niel-grumpytoad: So are there any questions on desired features/feedback/bugs in community projects like hxigniter, nme, hippo, hxgui, iphone, et al. ?
(05:56:41 PM) slaskis: Huge: did you ever get nme/neash to compile for osx 10.6?
(05:56:43 PM) Aduros: [hx]Nicolas: Would it be possible to open source part of Motion Twin's spod extensions?
(05:56:47 PM) Huge: I would also like "public static final CONSTANT = 1" so it can be used as a default value
(05:56:53 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Are there some projects that are still _needed_ ?
(05:57:12 PM) waneck: also, on that matter, we really need a way to define friendly classes on a better way than with anonymous types
(05:57:17 PM) justinfront_: I wanted to ask about Android plans
(05:57:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > what about "public static inline CONSTANT = 1" ?
(05:57:38 PM) Huge: 10.6 I use the -m32 flag for 32 bits. I don't have 10.6, but ti should work?
(05:57:48 PM) fponticelli: niel-grumpytoad, we need a cross platform GUI ;)
(05:57:49 PM) Dykam: http://as3.pastebin.com/m758cba65 composed
(05:57:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > send a formal proposal an the haxe list
(05:58:14 PM) Huge: Nicolas > ok, never tried that. What about enums without params?
(05:58:15 PM) Pignoufou: Ok, Nicolas, maybe I could talk about Android?
(05:58:16 PM) pimmhogeling: That's Java-ish, Dykam, but yeah good example
(05:58:23 PM) niel-grumpytoad: heh.. fponticelli you keep asking me for one!
(05:58:31 PM) Dykam: oh, oops, indeed
(05:58:33 PM) fponticelli: forever until done :D
(05:58:38 PM) niel-grumpytoad: meh.
(05:58:40 PM) waneck: will do ! : )
(05:58:43 PM) Dykam: C#ish, latest lang I worked with
(05:58:45 PM) slaskis: Huge: the problem was with SDL i believe
(05:58:46 PM) alijaya: test
(05:59:06 PM) pimmhogeling: I invite you all to look at Dykam's example, and tell me what you think
(05:59:11 PM) Dykam: pimmhogeling, http://as3.pastebin.com/m4a539c46
(05:59:14 PM) Dykam: that one
(05:59:32 PM) pimmhogeling: It needs "var"
(05:59:43 PM) Huge: Hmm, don't know. I did fix a crash bug on iphone with sdk v3.
(05:59:53 PM) Dykam: http://as3.pastebin.com/m223c38fb
(05:59:56 PM) Huge: I may need to be reminded later about details
(06:00:06 PM) [hx]Nicolas: not bad, but not good either :) replace "composed" by "private" and you almost have current "friend" feature ;)
(06:00:21 PM) Dykam: but friend is AND hackish/hackable, and dynamic
(06:00:26 PM) Dykam: in the back end
(06:01:02 PM) pimmhogeling: Friend feels really hack-ish
(06:01:15 PM) heinz: the problem with current friend feature is that it's slow because of dynamic i think
(06:01:20 PM) slaskis: Huge: i believe this was where i hit a wall ;) http://markmail.org/search/?q=haxe+robert+sköld#query:haxe%20robert%20sköld%20from%3A%22Robert%20Sköld%22%20order%3Adate-backward+page:1+mid:ve2wnwivlhlhhplf+state:results
(06:01:20 PM) [hx]Nicolas: as for backend, it could be optimized.
(06:01:28 PM) Dykam: and places the accesibility at the compsing class, not the composed one
(06:01:29 PM) pimmhogeling: Plus it's less clear, if a class has a private field I do not expect it to be accessed, not from a "friend" either
(06:01:35 PM) Dykam: that is a major thing
(06:01:50 PM) stickupkid: I'm on 10.6 and -m32 does work for c++
(06:02:00 PM) EdoRivai: I agree with pimmhogeling
(06:02:02 PM) waneck: also if you need to refactor something, and you have many typedefs for friendly types, it's just a pain to need to alter on there also.
(06:02:06 PM) slaskis: stickupkid: with neash/nme?
(06:02:08 PM) [hx]Nicolas: pimm > that's not haXe philosophy : everything should be made accessible if you know what you're doing
(06:02:12 PM) pimmhogeling: Whereas if a class would have a composed field, or whatever, I know it could be accessed at some point
(06:02:33 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > you can define one single one ;)
(06:02:37 PM) pimmhogeling: If you know what you're doing, yes
(06:02:59 PM) Pignoufou: pimmhogeling: If you don't know what you're doing, you have no reason to go the hackish way
(06:03:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's not a feature you can use by accident ;)
(06:03:27 PM) waneck: I didn't explain right... I actually do, but you always need to make the changes on both places - the original and the frinedly type definition.
(06:03:51 PM) Huge: slaskis - looks like may need to take native_midi out to 10.6. That would be in one of the makefiles. I may upgrade to 10.6 soon
(06:04:07 PM) TheHippo left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(06:04:11 PM) stickupkid: yes -- although not tested for iphone, but works on 10.6
(06:04:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes, that's normal. Using "public" should fix this ;)
(06:04:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: let's move on libraries/tools questions maybe ?
(06:04:45 PM) Huge: I like the package-level access the best
(06:04:49 PM) pimmhogeling: The thing is, if I'm writing a class with a field that should be accessible by the composer
(06:05:02 PM) pimmhogeling: Then the developer using that class would have to use a friend "pattern"
(06:05:13 PM) Dykam: indeed
(06:05:21 PM) tonypolinelli: hugh - have you made any more progress on the iphone target?
(06:05:24 PM) Huge: What is the status of haxelib?
(06:05:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Which is, as you said, not something you use easily, unless you really know what you're ding
(06:05:28 PM) pimmhogeling: *doing
(06:05:42 PM) EdoRivai: I agree
(06:05:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: some big changes have been proposed for haxelib
(06:05:56 PM) Huge: tony - I've got NME 2 drawing an opengl rectangle without SDL. Back onto it next week
(06:06:17 PM) [hx]Nicolas: very good work by blackdog btw
(06:06:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I need to answer about it so we can move on
(06:06:29 PM) justinfront_: the compose thing seems to be encourage compose use... but anyway we have moved on
(06:06:30 PM) Juan__: Huge > let us know when waxe is ready for some testing
(06:06:43 PM) [hx]Nicolas: one issue we have to decide on protocols and file formats used by haxelib
(06:06:51 PM) pimmhogeling: OK, let's move on then
(06:07:08 PM) TheHippo [n=hippo@f053097188.adsl.alicedsl.de] entered the room.
(06:07:08 PM) [hx]Nicolas: currently we have haXe Remoting (protocol) + XML (haxelib.xml)
(06:07:29 PM) Huge: Juan, YOu can create a frame and add some controls. There is a *lot* of functions to implenent - any helpers?
(06:07:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: proposal changes by using JSON + HXP
(06:07:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I agree with JSON if this can be wrapped with haXe remoting
(06:07:51 PM) zjnue: also, will there ba an official place for libs outside of public/bsd/lgpl ? like extern ports for say puremvc. where should there go with new haxelib options?
(06:08:02 PM) tonypolinelli: hugh - great, i really hope we can beat cs5 to the app store ;P
(06:08:08 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: I see no reason why it couldn't. It's just a string
(06:08:18 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes
(06:08:32 PM) [hx]Nicolas: as for HXP, I'm still a bit reluctent to add a new format
(06:08:51 PM) [hx]Nicolas: maybe we should have something like YAML (or plain JSON) instead ?
(06:09:24 PM) [hx]Nicolas: haxelib should rely only on standard haxe library because you don't want a library to compile the library manager :)
(06:09:24 PM) Huge: I think JSON is a good fit for haxe
(06:09:25 PM) Pignoufou: YAML is pretty crappy, being based on tabulations
(06:09:42 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Pingnoufou > that was an example ;)
(06:10:08 PM) [hx]Nicolas: any thoughts on this ? are blackdog or John here ?
(06:10:08 PM) niel-grumpytoad: +1 for JSON, not even sure haxe has a yaml parser..
(06:10:08 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: How about moving JSON (en|de)coder to the std lib?
(06:10:26 PM) Exey [n=exey@81.9.48.82.flatrate.ru] entered the room.
(06:10:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Pignoufou > that's the idea
(06:10:54 PM) fponticelli: YAML is good
(06:10:58 PM) Juan__: i like json support on std
(06:11:18 PM) [hx]Nicolas: anyone to donate a fully tested implementation ? :)
(06:11:30 PM) pimmhogeling: I am willing to work on that
(06:11:45 PM) pimmhogeling: And I agree that it should be added to the language's core libraries
(06:11:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: JS implementation should be easy :)
(06:12:03 PM) pimmhogeling: Providing that it will only be included in binaries that use it, obviously
(06:12:08 PM) VyceYieux [n=hackary@ber59-1-88-172-84-176.fbx.proxad.net] entered the room.
(06:12:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: the issue with JSON is that I think it does support Enums, right ?
(06:12:43 PM) fponticelli: enums?
(06:12:50 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's why we came up with haxe.Serializer/Unserializer in the first place
(06:13:04 PM) flashingpumpkin left the room (quit: "Don't drink and drive, smoke and code").
(06:13:12 PM) Huge: Looking a yaml, seems json:haxe = yaml:python, and special whitespace is why I chose haxe over python
(06:13:29 PM) niel-grumpytoad: well, most languages prefer a human readable-editable configuration format
(06:13:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > glad you did :)
(06:14:17 PM) [hx]Nicolas: since neither John or blackdog are here I propose we talk about it later on the lis
(06:14:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: -t
(06:14:40 PM) [hx]Nicolas: other library/tools-related questions ?
(06:14:57 PM) justinfront_: Can I ask about android now?
(06:14:57 PM) tonypolinelli: poll> who here uses the php target?
(06:15:14 PM) ciscoheat: Almost to 100% :)
(06:15:16 PM) fponticelli: not me ;)
(06:15:22 PM) Huge: nor me
(06:15:24 PM) Exey left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(06:15:26 PM) heinz: sometimes
(06:15:30 PM) jpsecher: php +1
(06:15:31 PM) stickupkid: I'm interested in android, I would like to help where I can
(06:15:34 PM) jjdonald: me
(06:15:34 PM) Huge: (no smiley)
(06:15:36 PM) danielgrad: me too
(06:15:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: who's working on android support ?
(06:15:45 PM) ***zjnue uses php sometimes
(06:16:07 PM) pimmhogeling: EdoRivai and I use the PHP target
(06:16:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: tp> I did run my blog in PHP for some time, but switched back to Neko
(06:16:22 PM) Aduros: I have a small site using haxe/php
(06:16:32 PM) justinfront_: Nicolas you can compile ocaml on it.
(06:16:35 PM) pimmhogeling: Our customers often aren't able to setup a neko server
(06:16:46 PM) EdoRivai: Yup
(06:16:53 PM) Huge: Has anyone tries the fastcgi demo
(06:17:07 PM) Pignoufou: I am working on Android [hx]Nicolas
(06:17:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: pimm > yes PHP really helps there
(06:17:27 PM) zjnue: i have, great work Huge. CGI works on DreamHost as-is, but trouble with FastCGI :(
(06:17:33 PM) fponticelli: pimm > that was the reason I made it
(06:17:39 PM) stickupkid: Huge > I couldn't get FastCGI working
(06:17:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Pignoufou > can you tell which point you reached ? do you need help from other people ?
(06:17:51 PM) niel-grumpytoad: will give the community topic another 10 minutes, then we can switch to standards, code conventions and licensing clarifications
(06:17:53 PM) pimmhogeling: And if so, what kind of help
(06:17:56 PM) stickupkid: because you can't run bash as fastCGI
(06:18:05 PM) Pignoufou: Ok so, to talk about Android
(06:18:14 PM) Pignoufou: (since my time schedule is tight as I'm in course right now...)
(06:18:17 PM) stickupkid: I'm on dreamhost - take it on the Mailing List?
(06:18:23 PM) Lazygekko left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(06:18:23 PM) Huge: ok
(06:18:40 PM) Pignoufou: I'm working with David Elahee from Mad Monkeys Studio on it
(06:18:59 PM) Pignoufou: My goals were the following : allow full integration with the Java frameworks
(06:19:00 PM) stickupkid: k, is there any help other than ocaml needed?
(06:19:14 PM) Pignoufou: Allow use on Android
(06:19:17 PM) pimmhogeling: OCaml help is perfectly fine, too
(06:19:19 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Are you compiling haXe to Java source or bytecode ?
(06:19:20 PM) Exey [n=exey@81.9.48.82.flatrate.ru] entered the room.
(06:19:38 PM) alijaya: excuse me, may i suggest a feature? *is it a right time? *kinda out of topic :p
(06:19:47 PM) Pignoufou: At the moment, the compiler takes HaXe code and translates it to Java code
(06:19:50 PM) Lazygekko [n=lazygekk@82.132.248.78] entered the room.
(06:19:52 PM) Pignoufou: (no Bytecode)
(06:19:56 PM) pimmhogeling: A language feature, alijaya?
(06:20:13 PM) Huge: What approach do you use to closures & dynamic?
(06:20:14 PM) alijaya: i think so
(06:20:14 PM) Pignoufou: Now, we are facing the "Dynamic problem"
(06:20:26 PM) alijaya: it's minor, about import thingy
(06:20:28 PM) [hx]Nicolas: is it written in Ocaml (a new code generator) or as a standalone tool ?
(06:20:43 PM) Pignoufou: As most of you certainly know, Java is very very static.
(06:20:43 PM) ceesam left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(06:20:54 PM) [hx]Nicolas: supporting Dynamic on not Dynamic platforms is hard.
(06:21:05 PM) Pignoufou: The compiler is completely based on the official haXe compiler, so it's just another "generator/backend"
(06:21:09 PM) [hx]Nicolas: k
(06:21:24 PM) tonypolinelli: hah.. just
(06:21:36 PM) Huge: c++, everything inherits from the "dynamic interface". So you can do basic ops on all "objects"
(06:21:55 PM) Pignoufou: So, actually, we basically need people with strong ideas about Javas inner working, so we can implement dynamics
(06:21:58 PM) pimmhogeling: alijaya, we're passed language features to be honest
(06:22:16 PM) Huge: I have some stong ideas on the java typing :)
(06:22:24 PM) Pignoufou: Even if you don't know OCaml, if you have an idea and can tell us "here's an example, here's the code you have to output", we can always get our hands dirty with OCaml ;) You don't need to
(06:22:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I have some strong ideas about how java typing is bad :)
(06:22:44 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: I now have the same opinion ;)
(06:22:46 PM) alijaya: ok maybe later :p
(06:23:09 PM) Pignoufou: Huge: Unfortunately, your approach won't allow integration with native frameworks
(06:23:20 PM) Huge: I think some hacking may be easier at the bytecode level
(06:23:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I guess that you need then to do some wrapping/unwrapping
(06:23:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: a Dynamic class with a single Object data field
(06:23:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and an API
(06:23:58 PM) Huge: The main "work" in the c++ backend is garbage collection, so maybe easier on java
(06:24:14 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: Yes, I do think so. Anyway, maybe we shouldn't go to deep in technical things here? Maybe we should discuss that later on IRC or Skype with people who want to help?
(06:24:23 PM) [hx]Nicolas: sure
(06:24:25 PM) Huge: You can also use the native java reflectance to do most things I think
(06:24:25 PM) ciscoheat: After this topic I would be interested to know if there are some thoughts on haxigniter, to know if I should dedicate time on something specific.
(06:24:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Pignoufou, if you need another pair of hands to get dirty with OCaml, consider mine
(06:24:43 PM) Pignoufou: Thanks pimmhogeling, I'll be contacting you ASAP (that certainly means tomorrow ;))
(06:24:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: David can come at MotionTwin too to discuss the details directly ;)
(06:24:52 PM) pimmhogeling: Great, thanks
(06:25:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: you can come too but not sure you're located in Bordeaux ;)
(06:25:33 PM) justinfront_: Ok is that the only good approach to android?
(06:25:36 PM) fponticelli: haxigniter is a great project that should deserve more attention
(06:25:37 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: Would be good to have some days off by Bordeaux, way more sunny than Caen :)
(06:25:54 PM) [hx]Nicolas: is Andreas here ?
(06:25:59 PM) ciscoheat: I'm here
(06:26:00 PM) fponticelli: yeap
(06:26:07 PM) loudoweb [n=loudoweb@77.195.27.15] entered the room.
(06:26:10 PM) Pignoufou: justinfront_: I do think so, since Android is a mobile platform, you have to get "native" for the user experience to be good
(06:26:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: want to talk about haxigniter ?
(06:26:26 PM) Philippe_FD [n=Miranda@194.206.246.110] entered the room.
(06:26:46 PM) pimmhogeling: niel-grumpytoad, what's the scedule
(06:26:59 PM) [hx]Nicolas: ok now that we have said all theses bad things about FlashDevelop, Philippe is joining us :)
(06:27:02 PM) ciscoheat: I'm just looking for some thoughts, if you've tried it out and found something strange, something that should *really* be documented... things like that. :)
(06:27:13 PM) Huge: I had a quick look - I will be using it if I ever do a website again. A fastcgi front-end also looks trivial.
(06:27:49 PM) Juan__: what's the state of haxeigniter? is it being kept up-to-date with the official branch?
(06:27:59 PM) niel-grumpytoad: pimmhogeling: we're switching
(06:28:02 PM) Juan__: i used it time ago, but finally moved to cakephp
(06:28:17 PM) Juan__: i used the php version, i mean
(06:28:18 PM) Philippe_FD: wow there's a lot of people there :)
(06:28:20 PM) ciscoheat: It is very up-to-date, I push new features and changes almost every day.
(06:28:21 PM) niel-grumpytoad: What Code Conventions are available or desirable for Haxe ?
(06:28:34 PM) ceesam [n=cee@212-149-220-46.bb.dnainternet.fi] entered the room.
(06:28:40 PM) pimmhogeling: Indeed, do we need code conventions?
(06:28:41 PM) niel-grumpytoad: what standards are missing but wanted ?
(06:28:45 PM) pimmhogeling: And if yes, which ones?
(06:28:46 PM) Juan__: ciscoheat > good to know
(06:29:11 PM) fponticelli: when htemplate will become the official haxigniter template system?
(06:29:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: andreas > nice
(06:29:14 PM) EdoRivai: Conventions for class and interface names
(06:29:19 PM) niel-grumpytoad: are there licensing issues - haXe has different licenses on different parts of the code
(06:29:30 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes
(06:29:40 PM) EdoRivai: should an interface be named ICar or just Car
(06:29:45 PM) Huge: Naming convenetions are for java programmers :)
(06:29:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge> +1
(06:29:53 PM) pimmhogeling: haXe has different licensed, which is not a problem
(06:30:01 PM) pimmhogeling: Minus one
(06:30:04 PM) EdoRivai: -1
(06:30:06 PM) pimmhogeling: :)
(06:30:09 PM) jpsecher: or CAR
(06:30:13 PM) EdoRivai: (no smiley)
(06:30:23 PM) Skorps: about haxigniter, will neko be kept as a target ?
(06:30:25 PM) niel-grumpytoad: but in reality, dynamic linking between propriety code and the linux kernel also exists, so ... IMO licensing is still a bit too grey in practice
(06:30:38 PM) ciscoheat: Skorps: Absolutely
(06:30:49 PM) pimmhogeling: I disagree that it is too grey
(06:31:04 PM) pimmhogeling: The thing is, it is not clear which license we want to use for libraries
(06:31:06 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Skorps: I think it will
(06:31:33 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas chose a license that obligates us all to add attribution to our binaries, for instance, but I think that's not intentional
(06:32:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: should we switch all the standard library from BSD to Public Domain ?
(06:32:27 PM) [hx]Nicolas: anyone in the compiler team against it ?
(06:32:30 PM) Pignoufou: pimmhogeling: Why is it so bad anyway? Lots of applications nowadays depends on LGPL-ed programs for example
(06:32:48 PM) pimmhogeling: Pignoufou, I'm not saying it's bad
(06:32:49 PM) fponticelli: not me
(06:32:54 PM) canab [n=chatzill@95.69.210.208] entered the room.
(06:32:55 PM) Huge: There is also the issue of static-linking (iphone) the LGPL code from the standard libraries I copies from the neko base
(06:33:05 PM) pimmhogeling: I'm just saying we should think about what we want
(06:33:22 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > we could relicense Neko under LGPL with linking exception, that's what OCaml does for instance
(06:33:24 PM) pimmhogeling: We're all writing libraries, I am, fponticelli is, Dykam is
(06:33:30 PM) Huge: Nicolas, I'm a big fan of public domain or mit for my stuff
(06:33:37 PM) pimmhogeling: Huge, why?
(06:33:45 PM) jpsecher: the 2-clause BSD licenses says that attribution should be in "in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution."
(06:34:03 PM) pimmhogeling: I know
(06:34:10 PM) Huge: I get satisfaction from when my code is used, not when I obligate smeone to do something
(06:34:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Public domain or MIT for stdlib, any preference ?
(06:34:24 PM) tonypolinelli: i'd say mit - as it is actually more open than public domain as i understand
(06:34:26 PM) pimmhogeling: I don't think we should focus on which license we have now, I think we should focus on what we want to achieve
(06:34:28 PM) aho: i like 0-clause BSD aka "i don't give a f-"
(06:34:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I think we cannot define something for all the libraries on haxelib
(06:34:39 PM) pimmhogeling: tonypolinelli, I disagree, PD is more "open"
(06:34:46 PM) Pignoufou: Isn't Public Domain risky? Anyone could just ripoff your work and sell it without adding any plus-value to it
(06:34:50 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but we can do a change once for the std library
(06:34:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Pignoufou, PD can be risky, yes
(06:35:18 PM) Huge: I have hear there are some issues with pd - IANAL. MIT is pretty simple
(06:35:20 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, yes, and we can tell people that is the prefered license for all haXe libraries
(06:35:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: we're talking about std library here, compiler will remain GPL
(06:35:37 PM) jpsecher: ISC license is even simpler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license
(06:35:37 PM) pimmhogeling: Compiler should remain GPL in my opinion
(06:35:48 PM) Juan__: has everybody read the post by grant skinner about licenses?
(06:35:49 PM) Juan__: http://www.gskinner.com/blog/archives/2008/07/source_code_lic_1.html
(06:35:51 PM) [hx]Nicolas: there's not much use for the standard library without the compiler ;)
(06:36:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Juan__ > yes, it was quite narrow minded IMHO
(06:36:15 PM) Juan__: +1 for a GPL compiler
(06:36:16 PM) pimmhogeling: There is, as the standard lib/core lib could be compiled in another compiler
(06:36:25 PM) Juan__: it's a start : )
(06:36:37 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, keep the compiler GPL
(06:36:43 PM) Huge: My vote: compiler GPL, libraries mit (you can choose mit from the pick box on code.google.com)
(06:36:44 PM) Pignoufou: pimmhogeling: Not even necessarily in another one
(06:36:53 PM) pimmhogeling: But the second thing is, the compiler does not get included in our binaries
(06:36:59 PM) Pignoufou: One could sell a package, arguing that he sells the std library, not the compiler
(06:37:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge have a good point :)
(06:37:11 PM) Juan__: i actually read this book, which i highly recommend
(06:37:12 PM) Juan__: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596517960
(06:37:20 PM) Juan__: about open source and intellectual property
(06:37:22 PM) Pignoufou: I do agree that MIT is better
(06:37:54 PM) pimmhogeling: Huge, you could also pick X11/MIT if the license you're using is X11/MIT compatible
(06:37:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: let's not be paranoid, people can already sell haxe by just talking about it in the documentation as per current license ;)
(06:38:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Yup
(06:38:42 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so, if we keep the compiler GPL and move the std library to MIT, everyone is fine with that ?
(06:38:49 PM) stickupkid: +1
(06:38:51 PM) Philippe_FD: who would want to sell haxe?
(06:38:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Changing to X11/MIT does not really change anything
(06:38:59 PM) pedromoraes: +1
(06:39:00 PM) Huge: excellent
(06:39:06 PM) pimmhogeling: We would still have to attribute in our binaries
(06:39:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Philippe > the bad guys with solar glasses
(06:39:16 PM) Philippe_FD: +1 for GPL compiler and MIT libraries
(06:39:24 PM) pimmhogeling: X11/MIT is almost the same as the two-clause BSD license
(06:39:24 PM) fponticelli: +1
(06:39:27 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Yes I like that idea
(06:39:34 PM) Huge: nicolas - and neko too (or can I change the headers of the code I "borrowed")
(06:39:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: really ?
(06:39:40 PM) pimmhogeling: Yup, sunglassed guys
(06:39:57 PM) [hx]Nicolas: wait a sec : does MIT requires code attribution as BSD does ?
(06:40:01 PM) Juan__: you guys mean Agent Smith is compiled in haxe? :P
(06:40:04 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, [hx]Nicolas
(06:40:19 PM) Philippe_FD: I don't think MIT requires anything like that
(06:40:38 PM) niel-grumpytoad: (everyone runs off to read MIT license)
(06:40:42 PM) pimmhogeling: "The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software."
(06:41:11 PM) pimmhogeling: Doesn't mention anything about binaries not being a portion of the software
(06:41:35 PM) pimmhogeling: We could modify the X11/MIT license not to require it though, if that's what we want
(06:41:36 PM) Philippe_FD: yes you must keep the mentions if you take "substiantial portions" of the code
(06:41:45 PM) pimmhogeling: That's my big question: what do we want?
(06:41:45 PM) Philippe_FD: (in the code only)
(06:41:56 PM) nymac left the room (quit: "CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)").
(06:42:16 PM) pimmhogeling: Philippe_FD, it doesn't say that, it says "included in all copies"
(06:42:22 PM) pimmhogeling: A binary is clearly a copy
(06:42:28 PM) jpsecher: no it is not
(06:42:39 PM) Huge: Yes, my intentions were keep the header in the code, do what you want with binary
(06:42:51 PM) pimmhogeling: Let's just say this: a judge could consider it a copy
(06:42:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: according to Wikipedia BSD-2 == MIT
(06:43:05 PM) pimmhogeling: There's no reason for us to assume (s)he'll not
(06:43:12 PM) JohnDG [n=johndg@c-71-237-70-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] entered the room.
(06:43:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: now, we could do the following
(06:43:37 PM) pimmhogeling: "Yes, my intentions were keep the header in the code, do what you want with binary" is that what we want?
(06:43:42 PM) pimmhogeling: As library writers?
(06:43:55 PM) jpsecher: yes there is: a lot of projects, companies, etc has incorporated DSB-like code and are not getting suid by anyone
(06:44:06 PM) jpsecher: BSD
(06:44:12 PM) JohnDG: Hi guys, sorry I'm late. Food poisoning.
(06:44:24 PM) pimmhogeling: jpsecher, yes, most of the time because they comply with the license
(06:44:32 PM) [hx]Nicolas: make an official statement as std library writers and state that will not enforce our rights on the BSD advertising
(06:44:40 PM) pimmhogeling: If you buy an iPod, the license and copyright notices are in the book you get along with it
(06:45:17 PM) Huge: Yes, "BSD with attribution exception" would be fine
(06:45:22 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, we could also change the BSD/X11 (MIT) license a bit to say that
(06:45:34 PM) pimmhogeling: So we're looking at BSD with no attribution in the binaries?
(06:45:39 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I don't want to create another license, please :)
(06:45:50 PM) Huge: also zlib seems good because they explicitly differentiate between the final product and ambiguous "software"
(06:45:53 PM) Juan__: yes, creating new licenses is usually highly un-recommended
(06:45:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: there's already way too much of these
(06:46:10 PM) pimmhogeling: Adding an exception to a license is not considered writing a new license in most cases
(06:46:12 PM) Huge: http://www.gzip.org/zlib/zlib_license.html
(06:46:21 PM) pimmhogeling: Especially if it's an additional permission
(06:46:36 PM) niel-grumpytoad: JohnDG: I think there were some earlier questions about haxelib.. it's status and future - maybe you can say something about it
(06:47:18 PM) justinfront_: Not really an exception just a clarification on what is ment by copy? you can just add it underneath?
(06:47:19 PM) Huge: still awake, tony?
(06:47:35 PM) tonypolinelli: ...just....
(06:47:36 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, if we'd use the MIT/X11 license with an additional permission, it would be considered MIT/X11, not a new license
(06:47:50 PM) pimmhogeling: justinfront_, yes, we could do that as well
(06:47:55 PM) pimmhogeling: That's just details
(06:48:11 PM) VyceYieux left the room (quit: ).
(06:48:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: tony > licensing wars at 3am, you're not lucky :)
(06:48:34 PM) tonypolinelli: good point hugh- night all 3:50 actually
(06:48:51 PM) tonypolinelli left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221151141]").
(06:48:52 PM) pimmhogeling: But let's ask this to anyone writing haXe libraries
(06:48:56 PM) JohnDG: niel: Blackdog, dg, and myself have devoted some effort to producing a new version of haxelib. It takes haxelib into the direction of a package manager. It makes it easy to submit libraries, supports custom repos, password reminders, clean file format, etc.
(06:48:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Would such a license suit you guys?
(06:49:28 PM) fponticelli: pimm, it is ok for me
(06:49:49 PM) slaskis: JohnDG: awesome!
(06:49:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I want something simple, without exceptions or other things of the kind if possible
(06:50:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > we talked a bit about it before
(06:50:44 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree
(06:50:49 PM) pimmhogeling: (with [hx]Nicolas)
(06:51:19 PM) pimmhogeling: But if that means we'll obligate our users to do things we don't want to obligate, then we should consider adding an additional permission
(06:51:23 PM) Lazygekko left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(06:51:25 PM) pimmhogeling: It's pretty common, I must say
(06:51:37 PM) pimmhogeling: A lot of projects use licenses, but add additional permissions
(06:52:09 PM) Huge: So maybe zlib or PD
(06:52:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I can understand, but that also makes things more complex than they should. What about PublicDomain ?
(06:52:20 PM) niel-grumpytoad: JohnDG: 2010-01-28 17:10:01 zjnue also, will there ba an official place for libs outside of public/bsd/lgpl ? like extern ports for say puremvc. where should there go with new haxelib options?
(06:52:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I'm fine with ZLIB also
(06:52:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Public Domain is risky, as mentioned
(06:52:32 PM) justinfront_: If you send it out as a maillist then any ports can report if they will have problems switching licences that the only issue maybe
(06:52:50 PM) jpsecher: AFAIK, there is no such thing as PD in Europe
(06:53:17 PM) waneck: what's the risk with PD if the libs can only be used along with the haXe compiler?
(06:53:18 PM) pimmhogeling: But now that we know which direction we want to go, we could discuss the details on the mailing list
(06:53:23 PM) JohnDG: The new haxelib is called "Haxed" and will be released early next week. But something the community needs to decide is whether to continue to use the current haxelib, or go with the new haxelib.
(06:53:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: right, especially in France since we cannot relinquish our writers rights
(06:53:28 PM) pimmhogeling: Are there any other things on the scedule, niel-grumpytoad?
(06:54:14 PM) justinfront_: can the libs be automatically transfered.. and a cross over period?
(06:54:26 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, right, here we can only release works under PD in exceptional situations
(06:54:35 PM) slaskis: JohnDG: i'd say push the new one with the next version of haxe (2.0.6? or perhaps 2.1?)
(06:54:47 PM) niel-grumpytoad: pimmhogeling: only final questions... I think we can wrap things up otherwise
(06:55:06 PM) pimmhogeling: Code conventions?
(06:55:10 PM) justinfront_: john> can the libs be automatically transfered.. and a cross over period?
(06:55:12 PM) Juan__: anybody fancies about the whole hippo / waxe / air / stuff?
(06:55:25 PM) alijaya left the room.
(06:55:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > my stand was to add haxe Remoting JSON support so we can keep typed client/server calls
(06:56:06 PM) Huge: Writing a "SWF widget" from waxe should not be too hard - not sure about all the platforms, though.
(06:56:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > and think which file format we can have as a standard for HXP files
(06:57:06 PM) Juan__: huge, how can you think you can go without the player? would you be able to cover the Flash API with neash + nme?
(06:57:16 PM) Juan__: how far, i mean
(06:57:51 PM) Huge: you should be able to get a game going - not too sure about a full gui
(06:58:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: which are the main missing APIs ?
(06:58:13 PM) Huge: I think the main issue is the flex mxml stufff e be implementeds
(06:58:33 PM) [hx]Nicolas: (apart from flex)
(06:58:36 PM) Pignoufou left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds).
(06:58:37 PM) Juan__: umm, but that would be out of scope, id say
(06:58:45 PM) fponticelli: (once more we need a unified cross-platform GUI)
(06:58:57 PM) justinfront_: yep
(06:59:08 PM) Huge: If the scope is keps small, neash should be able to do it
(06:59:11 PM) JohnDG: haXe remoting makes it difficult to make JavaScript clients; the file format is very clean and supports many features the old haxelib does not. That said, the project is open source and anyone can contribute patches, but by next week, the project will be sufficiently developed that we think the community will benefit from Haxed in its present form. Of course, people will add more features with time.
(06:59:20 PM) Huge: I dont really have the time fore "100% coverage"
(06:59:25 PM) zjnue: prelim flex support here, maybe code share: http://osflash.org/pipermail/osflash_osflash.org/2010-January/017078.html
(06:59:37 PM) niel-grumpytoad: fponticelli: it's a bit difficult to get the performance right across platforms
(06:59:44 PM) zjnue: from lightspark open source flash player
(06:59:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > the idea is to use the haXe remoting API with is standard in haXe but together with the JSON protocol
(06:59:48 PM) Juan__: zjnue > what happened to xinf?
(07:00:01 PM) fponticelli: niel, it is ... nevertheless you can't ignore the wow factor
(07:00:05 PM) JohnDG: fponticelli: Isn't there a Flash library emulator for most platforms? Stumbled across it on Google code I think.
(07:00:06 PM) slaskis_ [n=slaskis@c80-216-160-76.bredband.comhem.se] entered the room.
(07:00:11 PM) zjnue: don;t ask me, or well. i've been bad, but not skilled for non-flash targets
(07:00:22 PM) niel-grumpytoad: especially event handling is quite different on each platform , and can cause much memory loss
(07:00:42 PM) Juan__: zjnue > just asking : )
(07:00:48 PM) zjnue: ;)
(07:00:49 PM) justinfront_: hsl for events?
(07:00:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > could you maintain something like a compatibility list API per API and method per method so people can have a look at what works very well, partially or not at all ? Will be a good ground for submissions ;)
(07:00:55 PM) jpsecher left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(07:00:58 PM) pimmhogeling: HSL is awesome! :)
(07:01:08 PM) EdoRivai: HSL FTW!!
(07:01:14 PM) JohnDG: Nicolas, does haXe remoting support JSON presently?
(07:01:24 PM) fponticelli: emulator doesn't sound good ... and if you have flex on top of the flash api on top of an emulator I am not sure it is a good receipt ... without taking into account that using flex in haxe is still far from being an easy feat
(07:01:39 PM) pimmhogeling: Quick update, draft 3 of HSL is usable, and super stable (and way better than draft 1 and draft 2)
(07:01:40 PM) Huge: Nicolas, yes. I've started with flash.graphics mainly, and added events and some other stuff "as needed"
(07:01:45 PM) zjnue: how similar is HSL to robber penner's signals lib? http://github.com/robertpenner/as3-signals
(07:01:54 PM) fponticelli: Huge, such a list would help a lot
(07:02:13 PM) pimmhogeling: zjnue, it is similar to it, but uses some haXe-specific features, and is easier to use
(07:02:15 PM) niel-grumpytoad: we could try to make hxgui cross-platform using neash
(07:02:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > no but should be pretty easy to add, you just need to implement haxe.remoting.Connection interface, see how it's done for other protocols
(07:02:18 PM) Huge: The exact list is something I should work on - but so many ideas, so little time
(07:02:33 PM) zjnue: pimmhogeling > great :)
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(07:02:50 PM) pimmhogeling: zjnue, it is, I'm currently writing documentation and examples
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(07:03:09 PM) justinfront_: neash is inheritance based?
(07:03:21 PM) pimmhogeling: BTW If anyone has any suggestions for documentation for and examples of HSL, I'd love to hear it
(07:03:29 PM) Huge: If you defined a whole new API, you would keep the work limites, and I would be comfortable supporting the sub-set of calls.
(07:03:41 PM) justinfront_: have you put it in that code for me ;)
(07:04:05 PM) waneck: HSL is really great... I really like the way that all events are type-checked
(07:04:18 PM) [hx]Nicolas: indeed, but someone need global vision in order to have a xplatform API that works well
(07:04:27 PM) Huge: justing - the neash inheritance follows the flash inheritance
(07:04:51 PM) heinz: @hugh: maybe i can find the time to contribute in a few months, but currently i'm totally out of time because of my study
(07:04:53 PM) justinfront_: yes that was the point I was making... maybe that is not good for cross platform.
(07:04:55 PM) waneck: the main problem is that is a little confusing at first - mainly for the whole signaler part....
(07:05:17 PM) justinfront_: i mean neash is maybe nearly there but
(07:05:19 PM) waneck: i still don't know what it does, jsut use the DirectSignaler all the time
(07:05:36 PM) JohnDG: Neash has no JS layer, does it?
(07:05:44 PM) pimmhogeling: Signaler is an interface, DirectSignaler is an implementation of that interface (waneck)
(07:05:45 PM) justinfront_: canvas
(07:06:01 PM) Huge: JS has not had a lot of love lately
(07:06:10 PM) Juan__: maybe keeping the as3 API is not the best for cross-platform-ness but makes supporting different platforms SO much easier (from a dev point of view)
(07:06:17 PM) Philippe_FD: ah about JS...
(07:06:30 PM) waneck: i see, but I don't really see what good would it make to implement such interface... maybe it could be a little more direct
(07:06:31 PM) Huge: I'm also re-writing NME to make neash a thinner layer for performance reasons
(07:06:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: good
(07:07:09 PM) fponticelli: Nicolas, could it be possible to have using methods have precedence over private methods?
(07:07:12 PM) pimmhogeling: waneck, the NullSignaler and the TranslatingSignaler
(07:07:22 PM) pimmhogeling: I'll show you an example if you want to
(07:07:47 PM) waneck: pimm > it would be great! I'll help in the documentation, then.
(07:07:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: franco > only private is not very easy
(07:08:00 PM) pimmhogeling: waneck, I have your e-mail address, right?
(07:08:04 PM) JohnDG: The way to make something like Neash is to first come up with a low-level "primitives" routines, for example, something like JS Canvas + Sound + Network. This should be the cross-platform low-level layer. The Flash API is then built on top the lower layer.
(07:08:04 PM) waneck: right!
(07:08:16 PM) JohnDG: Thus to add support for a new target, one needs only to implement the low-level primitives.
(07:08:24 PM) fponticelli: Nicolas, having that could make a nice trick with friend types
(07:08:26 PM) JohnDG: Will cut down on the duplication across the neko/C++ targets.
(07:08:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: What about making an OS in haXe :)
(07:08:40 PM) niel-grumpytoad: no js-neash had some problematic performance problems, so it's unfortunately not being updated
(07:08:47 PM) fponticelli: HaXeOS, sounds good ;)
(07:08:53 PM) pimmhogeling: Minus one, lol
(07:08:57 PM) zjnue: nicolas, oshx.org .com was available last time i checked ;)
(07:08:57 PM) Huge: JohnDG, that was the separation between neash/NME
(07:09:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: franco > I see
(07:09:15 PM) Huge: NME was a thin layer on SDL. Now I've sort of changed that :)
(07:09:30 PM) JohnDG: Huge, looking at Neash source code base, I see lots of hard coded preprocessor directives for the platform.
(07:10:28 PM) Huge: Mainly because on flash, you don't need to do anything. JS was a bit different.
(07:10:32 PM) JohnDG: One would need a canvas abstraction, sound abstraction, network abstraction, and perhaps timing abstraction, in order to build the Flash API.
(07:10:56 PM) JohnDG: In fact, this strikes me as a good project for "haxe std lib 2.0"
(07:11:17 PM) Huge: THe problems with abstractions are performance and lowest-common-denominators.
(07:11:18 PM) JohnDG: Build all the above into the std lib in a cross-platform way. Then a community project could build Flash API on top of that.
(07:11:29 PM) justinfront_: graphics cross platform what I asked about last time :)
(07:12:12 PM) niel-grumpytoad: the main problem with JS-NME/neash is the regular timer that calls ENTER_FRAME - if the garbage collector kicks in you get a nice pause
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(07:12:44 PM) Huge: Seems JS performance has moved quite a bit in the last year
(07:13:01 PM) stickupkid: V8 seems to be leading this at the moment
(07:13:02 PM) Huge: and now you can "demo on the iphone" for the wow factor, it may be worth another think
(07:13:28 PM) justinfront_: if you use php can it help the js?
(07:13:29 PM) JohnDG: JS performance is on par with Flash
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(07:14:52 PM) Huge: The JS flash player that has been getting attention must have done some kind of "jsash" project to get a similat API.
(07:15:46 PM) Huge: So you could write an indepent flash API in JS, I've got one for neko/c++/iphone and one comes for free in flash, so you would have you cross platform graphics api
(07:16:44 PM) waneck: Yeah, but js works differently from flash... specially if we're thinking on ie compatibility
(07:16:57 PM) Huge: I guess I'm saying that the abstractions are already there - just look in the flash doco. You do not need to think about "what messaging should I use", the decision has already been made.
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(07:17:11 PM) Philippe_FD: IMHO I don't think a Flash API is JS is a great idea - each platform needs a specific treatment
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(07:17:23 PM) waneck: maybe we could pull up a html-kind of api (like adobe did with hxml)...
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(07:17:54 PM) waneck: and like (correct me if i'm wrong) haxegui is making...
(07:17:59 PM) Huge: well, I think that might be me for the night.....
(07:18:11 PM) pedromoraes: Huge: if you mean Gordon it doesnt implement a AS interpreter in javascript yet. the guy plans to do an AS2 vm soon.
(07:18:33 PM) justinfront_: flash player 2 or something
(07:18:34 PM) pedromoraes: I think Philippe is right
(07:19:04 PM) Huge: If you write in haxe, you don't need such code contortions :)
(07:19:43 PM) justinfront_: components structures should be cross platform, implementation can vary
(07:20:07 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Huge: the js-nme idea could work out a lot better if worker-threads are implemented cross-browser
(07:20:32 PM) niel-grumpytoad: that way, some of the more resource-intensive ops can be moved into a separate thread
(07:20:51 PM) Huge: I guess it's safari we are really thinking about
(07:21:28 PM) niel-grumpytoad: not sure, need to read up on it a bit better
(07:21:35 PM) Huge: bye
(07:21:44 PM) niel-grumpytoad: later
(07:21:48 PM) Huge left the room (quit: ).
(07:21:58 PM) Philippe_FD: the discussion seems very *game oriented*
(07:22:07 PM) Philippe_FD: I have nothing about games of course
(07:22:18 PM) iain: Nicolas: are there any docs/usage example for format.swf?
(07:22:20 PM) [hx]Nicolas: are there other questions ?
(07:22:28 PM) EdoRivai: It was fun listening to you guys, but I'm going.
(07:22:29 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree with EdoRivai, and I'll go too
(07:22:37 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Check http://lib.haxe.org/d/format
(07:23:06 PM) iain: there is no swf tag there?
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(07:23:30 PM) EdoRivai: Guys, check the meeting page on the haxe site. Pimm and I have taken notes.
(07:23:46 PM) iain: i should be able to figure out most of it from the source.. all i want to do is open an swf, insert some binary data and write it back
(07:24:07 PM) heinz: are there any plans or ideas about using the same application-domain (parent domains would be enough) for different haxe-swfs
(07:24:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: BTW everybody which have haxelib libraries can submit them with an haxedoc.xml to have online documentation, see http://haxe.org/com/haxelib for details
(07:24:41 PM) iain: oh sorry, didn't click on the 'format' link
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(07:25:23 PM) [hx]Nicolas: heinz > we could add again the "trick" before 2.04
(07:25:30 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but that's not a serious fix
(07:25:53 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Think we can close the meeting unless there are some more pressing comments
(07:25:53 PM) iain: i done some investigation on the 16mb binary limit.. turns out ocaml binary Buffer only supports up to the maximum string length on the platform (16mb on 32bit)
(07:25:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: the issue is that Flash consider two classes with the same name to be the same :'(
(07:25:57 PM) waneck: that would be nice!
(07:26:06 PM) justinfront_: could you document it and have it as a compiler option?
(07:26:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: iain > will try a fix somewhere
(07:26:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: justin> yes, fill an issue on googlecode for it
(07:27:12 PM) heinz: is there also a problem if you create a new application domain with the current as it's parent?
(07:27:27 PM) iain: thanks, its not majorly important - i just need >16mb temporarily so i can try to work around with format.swf
(07:27:34 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I think the issue is the same
(07:27:48 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I don't remember exactly what is the difference between the two
(07:28:05 PM) [hx]Nicolas: iain > swfmill should also be able to do it
(07:28:26 PM) heinz: and where exactly lies the problem if the boot class gets a random name?
(07:28:48 PM) [hx]Nicolas: for instance, flash.Lib.current will not be correctly set
(07:28:59 PM) justinfront_: Nicholas did you see the cross e4x on the forum
(07:29:05 PM) iain: i did try adding Rope.Buffer (which 'ties' strings together), and to my surprise it compiled with less than 16mb. however greater than 16mb it still needed to convert the Rope to a string which failed
(07:29:13 PM) waneck: Nicolas, any reason why haxe.magic.Proxy got out off future haxe features?
(07:29:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and Type API will not work in loaded SWF
(07:30:02 PM) justinfront_: oleg suggested this for e4x http://code.google.com/p/e4xu/source/browse/trunk/haxe/src/org/wvxvws/xml/W.hx
(07:30:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > can't remember, maybe na not so good idea ? or hard to implement
(07:31:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: justin>love the package name :)
(07:31:20 PM) heinz: ok, but if you use the loaded swf as an class-library, and you instantiate these classes from the main-swf that shouldn't be a problem
(07:31:23 PM) iain: i did use samhaxe to make a separate swf, but of course adding this swf to the main haxe-generated swf puts me back to square one (content swf is >16mb)
(07:32:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: heinz > yes, there are cases in which it works well enough ;)
(07:32:43 PM) justinfront_: Nicholas he shows its use here... http://haxe.org/forum/thread/1144 but I wondered if it could be made cleaner and added to haxe probably not?
(07:32:44 PM) waneck: Nicolas > ok... I just have to say it was a great idea!!! Specially if one could make a Proxy<T> extends T, implements Proxy, implements Generic
(07:32:46 PM) iain: heinz: how do i add the content/main swf to the loader swf without going past 16mb?
(07:32:56 PM) heinz: so i think the hack should be implemented ;)
(07:33:50 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I guess you could do something like haxe.xml.Fast which allow filters
(07:33:54 PM) Exey: It's Oleg's nickname "wvxvws" :)
(07:34:01 PM) heinz: i don't know, i would load it on runtime
(07:34:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Proxy<T> extends T is not a planned feature ;)
(07:34:37 PM) zjnue: Nicolas, would it be difficult to expose all Types info on a static var somewhere, even if it bloats binary size, as a compiler flag option ?
(07:34:39 PM) iain: yea, looks like it'll have to be runtime
(07:34:42 PM) waneck: Nicolas > actually in my case it would be for a query system for a fully haXe odms
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(07:35:13 PM) waneck: Nicolas > oh, that's what I thought!
(07:35:30 PM) waneck: I think I'll use the prototype hack on platforms that allow it...
(07:36:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: anyway, have to go soon :)
(07:36:46 PM) justinfront_: Ok well I am going to add this full transcript to the forum.
(07:36:51 PM) niel-grumpytoad: thanks for making it, hope we can have you here again soon...
(07:36:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: next meeting should be hosted on haxe.org with a nice haXe-based chat ;)
[14:00] pimmhogeling: emmanueloga, Lazygekko, Juan__, gianpi
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[14:07] alijaya: waiting
[14:08] elemen3: Any idea for running haXe apps on Solaris and OpenSolaris right now or on the future?
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[14:09] Huge: justin - nexus, hey. Looks like you have a java target to write - or does it run native code?
[14:12] justinfront_: People have compiled ocaml on it... I was wondering about native haxe and neko.
[14:12] justinfront_: apparently you can sort of run c++ on it
[14:14] heinz: more about c++ on android: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/android-goes-beyond-java-gains-native-cc-dev-kit.ars
[14:18] justinfront_: http://sites.google.com/site/keigoattic/ocaml-on-android
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[14:23] justinfront_: The textmate bundle is the most extensive I have seen, but not actually tried code yet. http://www.onebitwonder.com/projects/android/tutorial
[14:23] Huge: so it does look possible - but I don't think is is a "consumer" thing. You could write an app for yourself, but not give it to your mum.
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[14:25] justinfront_: The android has "Market' its apparently already got similar coverage on apps to the iphone app store. Android is linux based and my mobile is not tied to a network so its pushing personal control of the mobile space which traditionally is rather tied up
[14:27] justinfront_: surely once neko can be compiled you can use it to create apps you can compile to run on another phone maybe not?
[14:29] tonypolinelli: i highly doubt that the adroid market is as large as iphone atm, but that is a guess. Do they have a setup store like the App Store?
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[14:30] aho: Dykam, we got echelog running http://echelog.matzon.dk/?haxe
[14:30] aho: <:
[14:31] EdoRivai: Dykam is not here xD
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[14:32] justinfront_: its called android market
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[14:34] justinfront_: As I posted to the mailing list.. it would be good if we could get haxe or hscript working with this http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
[14:35] justinfront_: aho did Dykam do that in haXe?
[14:35] aho: ?:)
[14:36] aho: nah... he talked about logging the meeting eventually... therefore i told him that it's already logged by that handy bot
[14:37] Huge: I think the problem would be to do with security - java is "safe" for app-store apps, but if you run native code it could be malware
[14:39] Huge: I think the process of getting neko running on iphone would be very similar to ocaml - almost the same as a standard linux port
[14:39] Huge: Once you compile neko, you haxe haxe "scripting"
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[14:39] tonypolinelli: hah haxe = have?
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[14:40] Huge: too much haxe - normally I get it the other way around - doing a bit of "haxe" programming
[14:40] Huge: or "hace" or "have"
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[14:41] tonypolinelli: there wouldnt be too much benefit gettin neko on iphone anyway would there?
[14:41] heinz: android scripting is already working for javascript, so we just need a wrapper for the api
[14:42] heinz: as stated here: Scripts can be run interactively in a terminal, started as a long running service, or started via Locale. Python, Perl, JRuby, Lua, BeanShell, JavaScript, and shell are currently supported, and we're planning to add more.
[14:43] heinz: but maybe i'm off the track
[14:43] tonypolinelli: surely allowing scripts has to leave open a huge security hole for malware - unless they check the scripts like the facebook api
[14:43] tonypolinelli: are these scripts allowed for android-store apps?
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[14:45] [hx]Nicolas (n=ncannass@che33-4-82-233-72-200.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #haxe
[14:45] [hx]Nicolas: Hello, World !
[14:46] aho: bonjour
[14:46] tonypolinelli: zzzzzzzzzzzzz!
[14:46] TheHippo: hello....
[14:47] heinz: hi nicolas
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[14:47] iain: hi
[14:48] brunob: hi there
[14:48] bigarobas: hi
[14:48] Lazygekko: afternoon :)
[14:49] alijaya: night :D
[14:49] alijaya: 22.00 here >.<
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[14:50] [hx]Nicolas: 10 minutes to go ;)
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[14:51] tonypolinelli: 2am here- toughen up alijaya ;P
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[14:52] alijaya: haha :p
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[14:52] iain: 2am is when programmers are *supposed* to be awake :P
[14:52] tong_: hi
[14:52] ciscoheat: hello
[14:52] Juan__: wow, tony , that's haxe commitment : )
[14:52] mbaczynski: hello!
[14:52] pkplas: hi everyone
[14:52] pkplas is now known as zjnue
[14:52] slaskis: hey all :)
[14:52] tonypolinelli: gotta see what you guys have to yabber on about
[14:53] fponticelli: tony is not human ... see his facebook profile and you will understand ;)
[14:53] [hx]Nicolas: link pliz
[14:53] [hx]Nicolas: :)
[14:53] tonypolinelli: bahah- true ;P
[14:53] tonypolinelli: tonypee
[14:55] Huge: offtopic with some time to kill - anyone interested in the "waxe" wx/haxe integration project
[14:55] [hx]Nicolas: 4pm here, trying to fix a multithread lock bug in a new Tora feature ^^;
[14:55] Juan__: i am interested in waxe : )
[14:56] ciscoheat: Huge: Yes, very!
[14:56] slaskis: Huge: sounds really interesting i think
[14:56] fponticelli: indeed it is an interesting project and a tutorial would be great ;)
[14:56] zjnue: waxe looks really cool Hugh
[14:56] Juan__: actually, added the RSS for the SVN commits to my reader
[14:56] heinz: yep interested
[14:56] justinfront_: yes will it work on a mac ;
[14:56] fponticelli: Juan__ me too ;)
[14:57] Huge: re tutorial - still in early dev, but following the wx path closely (except use properties and closures for much better reading)
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[14:57] Juan__: also been taking a look to wxwidgets, and surprised they also target WinCe and some other apart from the big 3
[14:58] EdoRivai: Of all people in this room, pimmhogeling wins it cause he's sexy
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[14:58] [hx]Nicolas: wx have been out for a looong time
[14:58] zjnue: more offtopic : anyone using eclihx? the eclipsee4 idea looks good and flexsclipse project does something similar in as. i think that was an idea (online ide) for haxegui also. gershon here?
[14:58] Huge: yes wx has beed around
[14:58] Pignoufou: (Hello :))
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[14:59] pimmhogeling: Hello Pin
[14:59] pimmhogeling: Pignoufou,
[14:59] Pignoufou: zjnue: I bet we could implement a web-based IDE via something like CodeMirror
[14:59] pimmhogeling: Is niel-grumpytoad present, yet?
[14:59] heinz: waxe in combination with nme/neash would be a killer framework ;), native compiled flash apps on the desktop (cross os)
[14:59] [14:59] [hx]Nicolas: let's make a quick trpoll : what is you haXe IDE ? :)
[14:59] ***Aduros wakes up early for haxe
[14:59] zjnue: i'll check it out. the googlecode project i mentioned is actually "flexeclipse"
[14:59] Huge: justin - got mac port going. Seems I have to have neko in a ".app" folder - not sure what's going on there.
[14:59] slaskis: [hx]Nicolas: textmate for me
[15:00] Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: TextMate
[15:00] Aduros: [hx]Nicolas: vim
[15:00] iain: geany here
[15:00] justinfront_: textmate
[15:00] tonypolinelli: flashdevelop
[15:00] mbaczynski: FlashDevelop
[15:00] ciscoheat: FlashDevelop
[15:00] Huge: gvim
[15:00] fmjrey: jedit
[15:00] zjnue: old eclihaxe of illey on eclipse here
[15:00] fponticelli: FlashDevelop
[15:00] brunob: FDevelop
[15:00] tong_: eclipse
[15:00] [hx]Nicolas: still FD 2.x for me
[15:00] Juan__: textmate / FD here
[15:00] bigarobas: plashdevelop
[15:01] Pignoufou: Talking about IDEs, I would like to see them all using a build system based on hxml since this is the official haXe build system
[15:01] Juan__: nicolas, is it because 2.x still uses haxe compiler for completition?
[15:01] fmjrey: Actually I beefed jedit with my own plugins to make haxe dev easier
[15:01] fmjrey: se http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=201001281351.44741.jedit-devel@francois.rey.name&forum_name=jedit-devel
[15:01] [hx]Nicolas: 3.x also have haxe completion
[15:01] alijaya: xcode *with no plugin >.<
[15:01] [hx]Nicolas: but no multi-target project
[15:02] [hx]Nicolas: and I like to compile client+server together
[15:02] tonypolinelli: 3.x has so many great features- i just get a post command to call haxe build.hxml for a proper build
[15:02] Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: I've quite surprised to see that FD doesn't use hxml files... that makes it impossible to move a textmate project to FD
[15:02] heinz: 3.x svn has compiler completion on demand, which brings better performance on big projects
[15:02] Pignoufou: (and this is although we DO have a standard defined)
[15:02] [hx]Nicolas: Filt3r has been working on FD3 haXe plugin, I think it works well
[15:02] fponticelli: I found having 2 projects in the same directory is convenient in FD ... you switch with a doubleclick
[15:03] [hx]Nicolas: yes, I agree that haXe IDE support should at least enable to generate an HXML
[15:04] fmjrey: re: IDE, I think efforts must go into getting a proper *cross-platform* IDE
[15:04] justinfront_: i am hoping the sort e-texteditor out for linux, the android bundle really shows what power a plugin could have.
[15:04] [hx]Nicolas: we can't have one single IDE that fits everybody needs, so better have wide support ;)
[15:04] [hx]Nicolas: anyway, we will get started soon I guess
[15:05] pimmhogeling: I guess so, too
[15:05] pimmhogeling: Should niel-grumpytoad start off?
[15:05] justinfront_: Niel can't make it so he asked me to cover
[15:05] justinfront_:
[15:06] fmjrey: i would point out again the idea of running haxe compiler (ocaml) in java, see http://haxe.org/forum/thread/648
[15:06] pimmhogeling: justinfront_, will you lead the meeting, then?
[15:06] justinfront_: Nicolas the creator of haXe would you like to tell us about your future plans for haxe
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: ah ;) not just me
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: but anyway, let's get started !
[15:07] slaskis: yay!
[15:07] justinfront_: * haXe compiler: present (2.05) and future !
[15:07] justinfront_: Nicolas Cannasse, Franco Ponticelli, Hugh Sanderso
[15:07] tonypolinelli: n
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: first, nice to see you there :)
[15:07] niel-grumpytoad: hello, am back
[15:07] [hx]Nicolas: hi niel
[15:07] niel-grumpytoad: thanks for coming all
[15:08] niel-grumpytoad: the principal compiler writers are there
[15:08] niel-grumpytoad: excellent.. so I guess you can begin talking about the new haXe features ?
[15:08] danielgrad (n=daniel@89.122.242.135) has joined #haxe
(05:06:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: sure !
(05:06:59 PM) [hx]Nicolas: in case you don't know, we have setup a page on the haxe wiki
(05:07:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: http://haxe.org/com/features
(05:07:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: this is a place were we gather ideas about future language/compiler features
(05:08:09 PM) Aduros: *cheers for swc input*
(05:08:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it helps us to have some feedback about them BEFORE they are actually implemented
(05:08:24 PM) Huge: I must say that I did not rate MultiTypes, but they would make a good alternative to overloaded constructors for the wx code i've been doing.
(05:08:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and to have enough time to think about pro/cons of each feature
(05:09:04 PM) Huge: You will be my hero if you can pull off Removal of Temporary Stack Objects
(05:09:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Also, one of the goals of haXe is to keep the syntax (almost) as much simple as it is right now
(05:09:19 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so we definitly don't want to bloat the language
(05:09:34 PM) heinz: metadata would be fantastic and opens a lot of possibilities
(05:09:44 PM) heinz: without changing the language
(05:09:59 PM) go2ghana [n=chatzill@p54A60C44.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] entered the room.
(05:10:13 PM) aaulia [n=chatzill@110.138.128.48] entered the room.
(05:10:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes, metadata requires a bit more syntax, but does not get in the way with other expressions
(05:10:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: explaining everything would take quite a lot of time, so maybe we should just go with questions/answers ?
(05:11:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Feel free to ask anything about past, current and future haXe :)
(05:11:27 PM) Huge: I am interested in the general feeling about pre-processor - or has it been ruled out in favour of macros?
(05:11:37 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree with Huge
(05:11:42 PM) Pignoufou: Instead of developping the language, which is already quite mature, wouldn't it be more interesting to develop frameworks?
(05:11:45 PM) iain: yes, i'm all for the preprocessor
(05:12:08 PM) iain: (or an interface for preprocessors)
(05:12:22 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I'm not a big fan of preprocessors, although I us it a lot in C.
(05:12:40 PM) pimmhogeling: Could you explain why you're no big fan of them?
(05:12:44 PM) gabrielross [n=admin@modemcable136.252-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] entered the room.
(05:12:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: The main issue is that everybody does some custom syntax changes to the language with preprocessors
(05:12:47 PM) justinfront_: Pignoufou : agreed I would like flex cross platform alternative but maybe later discussion.
(05:12:48 PM) Lazygekko: as a total beginner, please could the documentation and examples be looked at?
(05:12:51 PM) slaskis: wouldn't the macro feature be some kind of preprocessor?
(05:12:51 PM) Pignoufou: I have to be against preprocessors, as that makes me feel like the toolchain may change depending from people
(05:12:57 PM) [hx]Nicolas: which makes code sharing a big issue
(05:13:11 PM) Aduros: No scalable language has a preprocessor...
(05:13:11 PM) pimmhogeling: True
(05:13:23 PM) pedromoraes_ [i=pedromor@187.35.11.69] entered the room.
(05:13:42 PM) pedromoraes_ left the room (quit: Client Quit).
(05:13:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: OCaml has something called Camlp4
(05:14:00 PM) [hx]Nicolas: which enable you to define new syntax rules on-the-fly
(05:14:07 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's pretty powerful but maybe too much
(05:14:22 PM) Huge: You dis' C/C++ as being non-scalable, but in reality, what is the biggest prog that has been written in haxe?
(05:14:26 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I'm quite conservative about syntax since it's the common language for all haXe'rs out there
(05:14:52 PM) ciscoheat: Sorry if it has been discussed before, but there is no mention of coroutines on the feature page?
(05:15:27 PM) fmjrey: preprocessors would make it harder for ide implementation too!
(05:15:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: My proposal wrt preprocessors are "macros" (as described on the future page)
(05:19:29 PM) The topic for #haxe is: haXe - http://haxe.org | web oriented universal language
(05:19:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it's a bit hard to sort through questions, we really need a custom thing for next meeting :)
(05:19:58 PM) ***Dykam is here
(05:19:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, we do
(05:20:04 PM) niel-grumpytoad: maybe it is worth looking at the "with" syntax first
(05:20:06 PM) pimmhogeling: I'd fly everyone here if I had the money
(05:20:26 PM) heinz: what information about classes and types is available in a macro, only context stuff?
(05:20:26 PM) ciscoheat: Turn on moderation and let someone sort out questions? ;)
(05:20:34 PM) stonebranch [n=stonebra@c80-216-160-76.bredband.comhem.se] entered the room.
(05:20:49 PM) EdoRivai: I'd fly anymhere if I had the money
(05:21:04 PM) niel-grumpytoad: is it a feature people generally want, or was it a one-time request from someone ?
(05:21:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: heinz > I guess we can make all types informations available in a macro
(05:21:41 PM) heinz: so we can possible pass a script to a macro which is compiled to native code
(05:22:04 PM) justinfront_: one-time request from someone ?
(05:22:21 PM) fmjrey: question: sorry to go back to ide, but i feel the "no ide fits everyone's" need is too dismissive of the issue. Couldn't there be ways of having the haxe compiler more supportive of ide implementation?
(05:22:25 PM) slaskis: niel-grumpytoad: which feature do you mean?
(05:22:40 PM) justinfront_: with
(05:22:53 PM) Huge: As for with syntax - I would be happy to see it in the language
(05:22:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: fmjrey > yes, work on it :)
(05:23:00 PM) R [n=biga@60.69.75-86.rev.gaoland.net] entered the room.
(05:23:01 PM) heinz: with is just an example which can be implemented by a macro
(05:23:15 PM) niel-grumpytoad: well, the one posted on the ML - you have a special symbol "with"
(05:23:51 PM) iain: would macros be able to store global data throughout the compilation process?
(05:23:54 PM) Huge: Yes, but not seriously?
(05:24:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: iain > yes
(05:24:21 PM) bigarobas left the room (quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
(05:24:30 PM) iain: good to know :)
(05:25:04 PM) tonypolinelli: fmjrey > it is already very supportive. We just need someone to get excited about eclipse. There is also a monodevelop thread for flashdevelop which has promise of making flashdevelop crossplatform
(05:25:50 PM) waneck: On the macro topic, couldn't we extend the macro possibilities to include also some kind of operator overloading?
(05:26:07 PM) slaskis: personally I'd never use a 'with' syntax, never used it while developing flash either
(05:26:08 PM) R is now known as bigarobas
(05:26:13 PM) justinfront_: e-textmate/textmate is also possible cross platform and bundles can be used better.
(05:26:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: huge > as for "with" syntax, I'm not a big fan : it's a pure syntax feature which doesn't bring any benefit in itself and has severe drawbacks when properties are mixed with locals. I proposed a "copyFields" on the mailing list which enable to copy all fields of an object to another with structural subtyping
(05:26:35 PM) waneck: I've ran into some issues where I could use an array syntax [] on some platforms (or compiler directives), but not on others...
(05:27:05 PM) fmjrey: I would work on it, but would take too much time for me and I have other priorities. But I do believe someone (e.g. a cs compiler student/researcher) could do great work with running haxe compiler in java to get on-the-fly compilation, code completion, error reporting, etc.
(05:27:06 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree with [hx]Nicolas on this one, the with syntax
(05:27:21 PM) fponticelli: not a fan either
(05:27:23 PM) waneck: it would be cool if we could substitute those behaviours- array access, operators, so some things like Int32 class would be more easier to work with
(05:27:36 PM) slaskis: the current work on the textmate bundle is really nice i think, still a bit buggy with the finding of build.hxml for me but autocompletion works real good
(05:27:45 PM) tonypolinelli: i agree - forget 'with' - should we move on?
(05:27:53 PM) Huge: fair enough - I could take it or leave it.
(05:27:56 PM) heinz: would it be possible to create e4x like extensions for haxe with a macro
(05:28:02 PM) pimmhogeling: We're dismissing with once and for all?
(05:28:06 PM) Juan__: with has been dismissed forever : )
(05:28:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > there's already "using", but no "+" overloading yet, in particular because they would break as soon as Dynamic is used
(05:28:26 PM) waneck: I see,, but using would break as well..
(05:28:29 PM) niel-grumpytoad: yes, how do macros work nicolas ?
(05:28:33 PM) justinfront_: So can we add copyFields to the language
(05:28:40 PM) tonypolinelli: (maybe just forget it for this discussion.. its 30mins so far ;P )
(05:28:40 PM) heinz: if you just pass a string which is transformed by the makro function
(05:28:42 PM) fponticelli: using doesn't work on Dynamic
(05:29:00 PM) waneck: exactly...
(05:29:15 PM) Aduros: Is it safe yet to turn on JIT when using Tora?
(05:29:22 PM) [hx]Nicolas: indeed :)
(05:29:36 PM) Aduros: Nice!
(05:29:56 PM) waneck: so... many things on haxe would break on dynamic introduction
(05:30:03 PM) waneck: e.g. getters and setters themselves
(05:30:07 PM) waneck: also using...
(05:30:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Aduros > we still had a few crashes in Tora+JIT but that's because some app-specific things, it might work better on your box
(05:30:15 PM) waneck: we just have to know that and live with that limitation
(05:30:40 PM) fponticelli: waneck, makes sense ;)
(05:31:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > operator overloading often requires method selection since you might want to implement all the possible cases
(05:31:26 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but OpOver is not hard to do as it
(05:31:44 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it's just a question wether we want to have it in the language or not
(05:32:17 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and, apart from haXe.Int32 and maybe some "Point" stuff, I don't see much use for them
(05:32:33 PM) waneck: I think that since haXe is all about being able to target many platforms, this would greatly help to overcome some problems on that process
(05:32:39 PM) fponticelli: well ... just having it for Int32 would be great ;)
(05:32:44 PM) Dykam: :D
(05:33:01 PM) dazKind [n=mib@norad.solute-gmbh.de] entered the room.
(05:33:02 PM) [hx]Nicolas: we could also directly support basic ops for Int32 in the compiler without OpOver
(05:33:04 PM) johnlindquist [n=johnlind@c-98-202-184-207.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] entered the room.
(05:33:14 PM) fponticelli: that would be enough for me :D
(05:33:28 PM) heinz: +1 for that
(05:33:30 PM) mbaczynski: doing heavy math stuff is a pain without operator overloading, would also speed up quick prototyping
(05:33:31 PM) pimmhogeling: That would be good, but also classes like Point, as you mentioned, could benefit from it
(05:33:57 PM) Dykam: why not immediatly expand it, and just made it convention that if you want to support the (+) operator, you have to supply a function OpAdd(..,..);
(05:34:18 PM) Huge: re: neko int32 - perhaps you could promote int32 into syntax, and implement an extra vaue type in neko. Infact, I don't think there will be a performance loss at all - maybe you can just upgrade neko to 32 bits for all ints?
(05:34:23 PM) Dykam: and throw a error when OpAdd does not exist
(05:34:28 PM) waneck: Also for a possible Int64, for example
(05:34:28 PM) niel-grumpytoad: From the "features" page, I prefer "Constraints in method parameters" and the library cleanup
(05:34:33 PM) zjnue: tentative +1 for opover here still, BigInteger, Int64, more freedoms..
(05:34:37 PM) mbaczynski: like in the D language :) http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/operatoroverloading.html
(05:35:08 PM) mbaczynski: a op b -> a.opFunc(b). like 'using' but more lightweight
(05:35:24 PM) Dykam: for example
(05:35:38 PM) justinfront_: Not following all, but swish has an "add" and "plus" which you can be more clear than "+", that maybe useful?
(05:35:55 PM) pimmhogeling: niel-grumpytoad, cut off the discussion if it gets framey and lengthy, OK?
(05:36:12 PM) waneck: this could also mean the possibility of being able to implement arrayAccess?
(05:36:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes, if we have operator overloading, it will enable to customize all operators including []
(05:36:50 PM) Dykam: that last one would be super sweet
(05:36:52 PM) waneck: this would be very great!
(05:36:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: (as long as not dynamic)
(05:36:57 PM) justinfront_: less clear though
(05:37:10 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree, both super sweet and less clear
(05:37:16 PM) EdoRivai: +1
(05:37:17 PM) iain: +1 for operator overloading
(05:37:18 PM) mbaczynski: +1
(05:37:21 PM) pedromoraes: +1
(05:37:25 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, why not dynamic? as every acces just gets compiled to some conventioned name... every class implementing a func with that name, will work with it
(05:37:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: however, it makes the programs less readable
(05:37:34 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, less readable/clear
(05:37:38 PM) justinfront_: +1 people adding +1 document it :)
(05:37:43 PM) Dykam: never had any problems with less readable apps btw
(05:37:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Dykam > if dynamic, maybe it's an Int
(05:37:51 PM) Dykam: ah
(05:37:57 PM) Dykam: that can indeed be a problem
(05:37:58 PM) waneck: I think that sometimes it makes the program a lot more readable
(05:38:19 PM) mbaczynski: what is more readable? a.add(b).sub(c).mul(d) or a + b - c * d
(05:38:19 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, on JS it is possible to extend the prototype of an int
(05:38:24 PM) pedromoraes: me too, especially in math
(05:38:26 PM) waneck: a simple example is just anything that uses Int32... I get lost so easily
(05:38:26 PM) Dykam: heh mbaczynski, very true
(05:38:36 PM) Huge: The dynamic issue is the same fot using/get/set - we can deal with it.
(05:38:41 PM) Dykam: indeed
(05:38:55 PM) niel-grumpytoad: OK, I think Nicolas can think of a way to make it clearer..
(05:39:11 PM) Dykam: though for get/set it is because you can give the get/set function your own name, and the get/setter can differ per property
(05:39:24 PM) justinfront_: this overload sounds more suited to a macro language that you could use with haXe
(05:39:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Dykam > no, because we have to be xplatform, and most Ints are not objects
(05:40:01 PM) Dykam: indeed...
(05:40:15 PM) Dykam: then it would just be the same as using/get/set
(05:40:26 PM) Huge: yes ints are very efficient on c++ - would be a shame to spoint that.
(05:40:40 PM) Dykam: Huge, it is wrapped in dynamic already anyways
(05:40:46 PM) Dykam: in those cases
(05:40:48 PM) Huge: That said, it could be done at the compiler level like using, so it may work anyway
(05:41:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > I agree that Dynamic issue is the same as get/set, but that's not a reason to spread it all over. The benefit has to be interesting enough to cover the cost ;)
(05:41:23 PM) heinz: It would be great to use in combination with makros like the way i posted it in the newsgroup
(05:41:23 PM) heinz: maybe
(05:41:23 PM) heinz: Math.openContext('
(05:41:31 PM) heinz: and so on
(05:41:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes indeed
(05:41:50 PM) alijaya: what is more readable? a.add(b).sub(c).mul(d) or a + b - c * d <<< i think it must be (a+b-c)*d
(05:42:09 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's not the question
(05:42:30 PM) [hx]Nicolas: there's also some issues with type inference
(05:42:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: function add(x,y) return x + y;
(05:42:48 PM) [hx]Nicolas: will type x and y as Int
(05:43:05 PM) Dykam: atm, yes
(05:43:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: it will not allow to pass instances with have overloaded +
(05:43:22 PM) waneck: but the + operator is already overloaded - it could be a string e.g.
(05:43:42 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, why not? what is preventing such a compiler feature
(05:43:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: think about the following
(05:44:27 PM) [hx]Nicolas: all operations + - * / does type inference with either Int or Float
(05:44:44 PM) Huge: (or string for +)
(05:44:50 PM) Dykam: [hx]Nicolas, currently yes
(05:44:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes
(05:45:10 PM) Dykam: what's preventing changing that, besides backwards incompatibility
(05:45:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so with OpOper it will fail unless you typed your variables
(05:45:39 PM) [hx]Nicolas: we cannot delay this since it requires generating different code for the compiler
(05:45:45 PM) niel-grumpytoad: can we give the haXe features discussion another 10 minutes, and switch to the community libraries...
(05:45:46 PM) waneck: may be could create an interface like Operatable
(05:46:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: maybe let's move on right now ?
(05:46:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: other questions ?
(05:46:44 PM) pimmhogeling: Other language features people are intested in?
(05:46:55 PM) danielgrad: what about allowing overload only for the array access op?
(05:47:23 PM) Huge: But what is different: function X<A,B>(a:A,b:B) { return a.someFunc(b); }
(05:47:23 PM) heinz: i think metadata is really important, is this already planned or only in discussion
(05:47:38 PM) justinfront_: e4x someone posted something on the forum for cross platform
(05:47:38 PM) Huge: sorry - we've moved on
(05:47:41 PM) Dykam: I agree with heinz
(05:47:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: everything on the "features" page http://haxe.org/com/features is not decided yet
(05:47:59 PM) tonypolinelli: swc import would be great - timeline?
(05:48:11 PM) pimmhogeling: Let's first discuss metadata
(05:48:32 PM) [hx]Nicolas: swc input actually requires metadata and multiple -swf-lib first
(05:49:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: since we need to pass as3-specific stuff (protected/private/namespace/etc) to the backend (with metadata)
(05:49:25 PM) justinfront_: can you put layouts in something like XAML or FLEX in meta data
(05:49:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: clarify ?
(05:49:58 PM) heinz: i think if metadata is implemented than in the java or c# way (with types as arguments, not only strings as in as3)
(05:50:14 PM) Dykam: primitive types
(05:50:28 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but yes, it might be interesting to have all core haXe values as part of metadata
(05:50:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: code generators might use them to perform some specific tasks
(05:50:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but they will also be accessible at runtime
(05:51:11 PM) waneck: specially with the @macro feature
(05:51:28 PM) heinz: only core types or also custom classes as types
(05:51:38 PM) zjnue: is this where full type info can be read live, for say a full haxe interpreter?
(05:51:42 PM) [hx]Nicolas: java annotations syntax is not bad : http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/annotations.html
(05:52:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: zjnue > clarify ?
(05:52:44 PM) jjdonald [n=jjdonald@cpe-24-166-14-75.indy.res.rr.com] entered the room.
(05:52:44 PM) pimmhogeling: Nobody is against adding metadata to the language, or am I missing someone?
(05:53:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: maybe other questions then ? :)
(05:53:21 PM) zjnue: reading all types, not only ones defined with rtti. this may allow to extend hscript with more lang features and support type checking
(05:53:33 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge for haxe/C++ and Franco for haXe/PHP are here too ^^;
(05:53:39 PM) Dykam: pimmhogeling, composed?
(05:54:05 PM) Huge: ready to answer...
(05:54:11 PM) pimmhogeling: What I would like to ask is, what's [hx]Nicolas' oppinion on adding an access level is general
(05:54:22 PM) zjnue: something like this was on the TODO on some stage i believe. not sure if still planned or where it is included in features list
(05:54:22 PM) pimmhogeling: *in general
(05:54:27 PM) fponticelli: :)
(05:54:30 PM) justinfront_: Is it the wrong time to ask about a better solution to loading haXe flash movies into the same domain and trying to improve bad parts of flash.
(05:54:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: zjnue > rtti takes space in generated program, so still be per-class, but we definitely need to find a better way that right now
(05:54:55 PM) waneck: maybe we could use metadata to implement some features that could only make a difference in a specific platform - @protected for flash, and maybe e.g. @final for cpp
(05:55:05 PM) zjnue: ah, thank you
(05:55:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: pimm > what's "an access level" ? :)
(05:55:24 PM) Dykam: internal, private, public, etc
(05:55:26 PM) Huge: No point adding it to cpp - I make eveything public!
(05:55:29 PM) pimmhogeling: public or private, or protected as we've discussed many times
(05:55:59 PM) waneck: no, no.. that's what I meant... a @final keyword would only ake sense for cpp, to generate not-virtual methods
(05:56:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: the philosophy of haXe is not to protect the developer against itself
(05:56:11 PM) Dykam: pimmhogeling and I talked about "composed" or "composing". properties marked with this level would be accesible by itself, inheritors and the classes having a property of this
(05:56:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so public + private seems enough
(05:56:19 PM) Dykam: it would enable easier composition
(05:56:22 PM) pimmhogeling: Right
(05:56:31 PM) niel-grumpytoad: So are there any questions on desired features/feedback/bugs in community projects like hxigniter, nme, hippo, hxgui, iphone, et al. ?
(05:56:41 PM) slaskis: Huge: did you ever get nme/neash to compile for osx 10.6?
(05:56:43 PM) Aduros: [hx]Nicolas: Would it be possible to open source part of Motion Twin's spod extensions?
(05:56:47 PM) Huge: I would also like "public static final CONSTANT = 1" so it can be used as a default value
(05:56:53 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Are there some projects that are still _needed_ ?
(05:57:12 PM) waneck: also, on that matter, we really need a way to define friendly classes on a better way than with anonymous types
(05:57:17 PM) justinfront_: I wanted to ask about Android plans
(05:57:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > what about "public static inline CONSTANT = 1" ?
(05:57:38 PM) Huge: 10.6 I use the -m32 flag for 32 bits. I don't have 10.6, but ti should work?
(05:57:48 PM) fponticelli: niel-grumpytoad, we need a cross platform GUI ;)
(05:57:49 PM) Dykam: http://as3.pastebin.com/m758cba65 composed
(05:57:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > send a formal proposal an the haxe list
(05:58:14 PM) Huge: Nicolas > ok, never tried that. What about enums without params?
(05:58:15 PM) Pignoufou: Ok, Nicolas, maybe I could talk about Android?
(05:58:16 PM) pimmhogeling: That's Java-ish, Dykam, but yeah good example
(05:58:23 PM) niel-grumpytoad: heh.. fponticelli you keep asking me for one!
(05:58:31 PM) Dykam: oh, oops, indeed
(05:58:33 PM) fponticelli: forever until done :D
(05:58:38 PM) niel-grumpytoad: meh.
(05:58:40 PM) waneck: will do ! : )
(05:58:43 PM) Dykam: C#ish, latest lang I worked with
(05:58:45 PM) slaskis: Huge: the problem was with SDL i believe
(05:58:46 PM) alijaya: test
(05:59:06 PM) pimmhogeling: I invite you all to look at Dykam's example, and tell me what you think
(05:59:11 PM) Dykam: pimmhogeling, http://as3.pastebin.com/m4a539c46
(05:59:14 PM) Dykam: that one
(05:59:32 PM) pimmhogeling: It needs "var"
(05:59:43 PM) Huge: Hmm, don't know. I did fix a crash bug on iphone with sdk v3.
(05:59:53 PM) Dykam: http://as3.pastebin.com/m223c38fb
(05:59:56 PM) Huge: I may need to be reminded later about details
(06:00:06 PM) [hx]Nicolas: not bad, but not good either :) replace "composed" by "private" and you almost have current "friend" feature ;)
(06:00:21 PM) Dykam: but friend is AND hackish/hackable, and dynamic
(06:00:26 PM) Dykam: in the back end
(06:01:02 PM) pimmhogeling: Friend feels really hack-ish
(06:01:15 PM) heinz: the problem with current friend feature is that it's slow because of dynamic i think
(06:01:20 PM) slaskis: Huge: i believe this was where i hit a wall ;) http://markmail.org/search/?q=haxe+robert+sköld#query:haxe%20robert%20sköld%20from%3A%22Robert%20Sköld%22%20order%3Adate-backward+page:1+mid:ve2wnwivlhlhhplf+state:results
(06:01:20 PM) [hx]Nicolas: as for backend, it could be optimized.
(06:01:28 PM) Dykam: and places the accesibility at the compsing class, not the composed one
(06:01:29 PM) pimmhogeling: Plus it's less clear, if a class has a private field I do not expect it to be accessed, not from a "friend" either
(06:01:35 PM) Dykam: that is a major thing
(06:01:50 PM) stickupkid: I'm on 10.6 and -m32 does work for c++
(06:02:00 PM) EdoRivai: I agree with pimmhogeling
(06:02:02 PM) waneck: also if you need to refactor something, and you have many typedefs for friendly types, it's just a pain to need to alter on there also.
(06:02:06 PM) slaskis: stickupkid: with neash/nme?
(06:02:08 PM) [hx]Nicolas: pimm > that's not haXe philosophy : everything should be made accessible if you know what you're doing
(06:02:12 PM) pimmhogeling: Whereas if a class would have a composed field, or whatever, I know it could be accessed at some point
(06:02:33 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > you can define one single one ;)
(06:02:37 PM) pimmhogeling: If you know what you're doing, yes
(06:02:59 PM) Pignoufou: pimmhogeling: If you don't know what you're doing, you have no reason to go the hackish way
(06:03:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's not a feature you can use by accident ;)
(06:03:27 PM) waneck: I didn't explain right... I actually do, but you always need to make the changes on both places - the original and the frinedly type definition.
(06:03:51 PM) Huge: slaskis - looks like may need to take native_midi out to 10.6. That would be in one of the makefiles. I may upgrade to 10.6 soon
(06:04:07 PM) TheHippo left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(06:04:11 PM) stickupkid: yes -- although not tested for iphone, but works on 10.6
(06:04:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes, that's normal. Using "public" should fix this ;)
(06:04:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: let's move on libraries/tools questions maybe ?
(06:04:45 PM) Huge: I like the package-level access the best
(06:04:49 PM) pimmhogeling: The thing is, if I'm writing a class with a field that should be accessible by the composer
(06:05:02 PM) pimmhogeling: Then the developer using that class would have to use a friend "pattern"
(06:05:13 PM) Dykam: indeed
(06:05:21 PM) tonypolinelli: hugh - have you made any more progress on the iphone target?
(06:05:24 PM) Huge: What is the status of haxelib?
(06:05:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Which is, as you said, not something you use easily, unless you really know what you're ding
(06:05:28 PM) pimmhogeling: *doing
(06:05:42 PM) EdoRivai: I agree
(06:05:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: some big changes have been proposed for haxelib
(06:05:56 PM) Huge: tony - I've got NME 2 drawing an opengl rectangle without SDL. Back onto it next week
(06:06:17 PM) [hx]Nicolas: very good work by blackdog btw
(06:06:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I need to answer about it so we can move on
(06:06:29 PM) justinfront_: the compose thing seems to be encourage compose use... but anyway we have moved on
(06:06:30 PM) Juan__: Huge > let us know when waxe is ready for some testing
(06:06:43 PM) [hx]Nicolas: one issue we have to decide on protocols and file formats used by haxelib
(06:06:51 PM) pimmhogeling: OK, let's move on then
(06:07:08 PM) TheHippo [n=hippo@f053097188.adsl.alicedsl.de] entered the room.
(06:07:08 PM) [hx]Nicolas: currently we have haXe Remoting (protocol) + XML (haxelib.xml)
(06:07:29 PM) Huge: Juan, YOu can create a frame and add some controls. There is a *lot* of functions to implenent - any helpers?
(06:07:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: proposal changes by using JSON + HXP
(06:07:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I agree with JSON if this can be wrapped with haXe remoting
(06:07:51 PM) zjnue: also, will there ba an official place for libs outside of public/bsd/lgpl ? like extern ports for say puremvc. where should there go with new haxelib options?
(06:08:02 PM) tonypolinelli: hugh - great, i really hope we can beat cs5 to the app store ;P
(06:08:08 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: I see no reason why it couldn't. It's just a string
(06:08:18 PM) [hx]Nicolas: yes
(06:08:32 PM) [hx]Nicolas: as for HXP, I'm still a bit reluctent to add a new format
(06:08:51 PM) [hx]Nicolas: maybe we should have something like YAML (or plain JSON) instead ?
(06:09:24 PM) [hx]Nicolas: haxelib should rely only on standard haxe library because you don't want a library to compile the library manager :)
(06:09:24 PM) Huge: I think JSON is a good fit for haxe
(06:09:25 PM) Pignoufou: YAML is pretty crappy, being based on tabulations
(06:09:42 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Pingnoufou > that was an example ;)
(06:10:08 PM) [hx]Nicolas: any thoughts on this ? are blackdog or John here ?
(06:10:08 PM) niel-grumpytoad: +1 for JSON, not even sure haxe has a yaml parser..
(06:10:08 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: How about moving JSON (en|de)coder to the std lib?
(06:10:26 PM) Exey [n=exey@81.9.48.82.flatrate.ru] entered the room.
(06:10:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Pignoufou > that's the idea
(06:10:54 PM) fponticelli: YAML is good
(06:10:58 PM) Juan__: i like json support on std
(06:11:18 PM) [hx]Nicolas: anyone to donate a fully tested implementation ? :)
(06:11:30 PM) pimmhogeling: I am willing to work on that
(06:11:45 PM) pimmhogeling: And I agree that it should be added to the language's core libraries
(06:11:53 PM) [hx]Nicolas: JS implementation should be easy :)
(06:12:03 PM) pimmhogeling: Providing that it will only be included in binaries that use it, obviously
(06:12:08 PM) VyceYieux [n=hackary@ber59-1-88-172-84-176.fbx.proxad.net] entered the room.
(06:12:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: the issue with JSON is that I think it does support Enums, right ?
(06:12:43 PM) fponticelli: enums?
(06:12:50 PM) [hx]Nicolas: that's why we came up with haxe.Serializer/Unserializer in the first place
(06:13:04 PM) flashingpumpkin left the room (quit: "Don't drink and drive, smoke and code").
(06:13:12 PM) Huge: Looking a yaml, seems json:haxe = yaml:python, and special whitespace is why I chose haxe over python
(06:13:29 PM) niel-grumpytoad: well, most languages prefer a human readable-editable configuration format
(06:13:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > glad you did :)
(06:14:17 PM) [hx]Nicolas: since neither John or blackdog are here I propose we talk about it later on the lis
(06:14:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: -t
(06:14:40 PM) [hx]Nicolas: other library/tools-related questions ?
(06:14:57 PM) justinfront_: Can I ask about android now?
(06:14:57 PM) tonypolinelli: poll> who here uses the php target?
(06:15:14 PM) ciscoheat: Almost to 100% :)
(06:15:16 PM) fponticelli: not me ;)
(06:15:22 PM) Huge: nor me
(06:15:24 PM) Exey left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(06:15:26 PM) heinz: sometimes
(06:15:30 PM) jpsecher: php +1
(06:15:31 PM) stickupkid: I'm interested in android, I would like to help where I can
(06:15:34 PM) jjdonald: me
(06:15:34 PM) Huge: (no smiley)
(06:15:36 PM) danielgrad: me too
(06:15:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: who's working on android support ?
(06:15:45 PM) ***zjnue uses php sometimes
(06:16:07 PM) pimmhogeling: EdoRivai and I use the PHP target
(06:16:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: tp> I did run my blog in PHP for some time, but switched back to Neko
(06:16:22 PM) Aduros: I have a small site using haxe/php
(06:16:32 PM) justinfront_: Nicolas you can compile ocaml on it.
(06:16:35 PM) pimmhogeling: Our customers often aren't able to setup a neko server
(06:16:46 PM) EdoRivai: Yup
(06:16:53 PM) Huge: Has anyone tries the fastcgi demo
(06:17:07 PM) Pignoufou: I am working on Android [hx]Nicolas
(06:17:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: pimm > yes PHP really helps there
(06:17:27 PM) zjnue: i have, great work Huge. CGI works on DreamHost as-is, but trouble with FastCGI :(
(06:17:33 PM) fponticelli: pimm > that was the reason I made it
(06:17:39 PM) stickupkid: Huge > I couldn't get FastCGI working
(06:17:41 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Pignoufou > can you tell which point you reached ? do you need help from other people ?
(06:17:51 PM) niel-grumpytoad: will give the community topic another 10 minutes, then we can switch to standards, code conventions and licensing clarifications
(06:17:53 PM) pimmhogeling: And if so, what kind of help
(06:17:56 PM) stickupkid: because you can't run bash as fastCGI
(06:18:05 PM) Pignoufou: Ok so, to talk about Android
(06:18:14 PM) Pignoufou: (since my time schedule is tight as I'm in course right now...)
(06:18:17 PM) stickupkid: I'm on dreamhost - take it on the Mailing List?
(06:18:23 PM) Lazygekko left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(06:18:23 PM) Huge: ok
(06:18:40 PM) Pignoufou: I'm working with David Elahee from Mad Monkeys Studio on it
(06:18:59 PM) Pignoufou: My goals were the following : allow full integration with the Java frameworks
(06:19:00 PM) stickupkid: k, is there any help other than ocaml needed?
(06:19:14 PM) Pignoufou: Allow use on Android
(06:19:17 PM) pimmhogeling: OCaml help is perfectly fine, too
(06:19:19 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Are you compiling haXe to Java source or bytecode ?
(06:19:20 PM) Exey [n=exey@81.9.48.82.flatrate.ru] entered the room.
(06:19:38 PM) alijaya: excuse me, may i suggest a feature? *is it a right time? *kinda out of topic :p
(06:19:47 PM) Pignoufou: At the moment, the compiler takes HaXe code and translates it to Java code
(06:19:50 PM) Lazygekko [n=lazygekk@82.132.248.78] entered the room.
(06:19:52 PM) Pignoufou: (no Bytecode)
(06:19:56 PM) pimmhogeling: A language feature, alijaya?
(06:20:13 PM) Huge: What approach do you use to closures & dynamic?
(06:20:14 PM) alijaya: i think so
(06:20:14 PM) Pignoufou: Now, we are facing the "Dynamic problem"
(06:20:26 PM) alijaya: it's minor, about import thingy
(06:20:28 PM) [hx]Nicolas: is it written in Ocaml (a new code generator) or as a standalone tool ?
(06:20:43 PM) Pignoufou: As most of you certainly know, Java is very very static.
(06:20:43 PM) ceesam left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(06:20:54 PM) [hx]Nicolas: supporting Dynamic on not Dynamic platforms is hard.
(06:21:05 PM) Pignoufou: The compiler is completely based on the official haXe compiler, so it's just another "generator/backend"
(06:21:09 PM) [hx]Nicolas: k
(06:21:24 PM) tonypolinelli: hah.. just
(06:21:36 PM) Huge: c++, everything inherits from the "dynamic interface". So you can do basic ops on all "objects"
(06:21:55 PM) Pignoufou: So, actually, we basically need people with strong ideas about Javas inner working, so we can implement dynamics
(06:21:58 PM) pimmhogeling: alijaya, we're passed language features to be honest
(06:22:16 PM) Huge: I have some stong ideas on the java typing :)
(06:22:24 PM) Pignoufou: Even if you don't know OCaml, if you have an idea and can tell us "here's an example, here's the code you have to output", we can always get our hands dirty with OCaml ;) You don't need to
(06:22:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I have some strong ideas about how java typing is bad :)
(06:22:44 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: I now have the same opinion ;)
(06:22:46 PM) alijaya: ok maybe later :p
(06:23:09 PM) Pignoufou: Huge: Unfortunately, your approach won't allow integration with native frameworks
(06:23:20 PM) Huge: I think some hacking may be easier at the bytecode level
(06:23:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I guess that you need then to do some wrapping/unwrapping
(06:23:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: a Dynamic class with a single Object data field
(06:23:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and an API
(06:23:58 PM) Huge: The main "work" in the c++ backend is garbage collection, so maybe easier on java
(06:24:14 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: Yes, I do think so. Anyway, maybe we shouldn't go to deep in technical things here? Maybe we should discuss that later on IRC or Skype with people who want to help?
(06:24:23 PM) [hx]Nicolas: sure
(06:24:25 PM) Huge: You can also use the native java reflectance to do most things I think
(06:24:25 PM) ciscoheat: After this topic I would be interested to know if there are some thoughts on haxigniter, to know if I should dedicate time on something specific.
(06:24:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Pignoufou, if you need another pair of hands to get dirty with OCaml, consider mine
(06:24:43 PM) Pignoufou: Thanks pimmhogeling, I'll be contacting you ASAP (that certainly means tomorrow ;))
(06:24:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: David can come at MotionTwin too to discuss the details directly ;)
(06:24:52 PM) pimmhogeling: Great, thanks
(06:25:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: you can come too but not sure you're located in Bordeaux ;)
(06:25:33 PM) justinfront_: Ok is that the only good approach to android?
(06:25:36 PM) fponticelli: haxigniter is a great project that should deserve more attention
(06:25:37 PM) Pignoufou: [hx]Nicolas: Would be good to have some days off by Bordeaux, way more sunny than Caen :)
(06:25:54 PM) [hx]Nicolas: is Andreas here ?
(06:25:59 PM) ciscoheat: I'm here
(06:26:00 PM) fponticelli: yeap
(06:26:07 PM) loudoweb [n=loudoweb@77.195.27.15] entered the room.
(06:26:10 PM) Pignoufou: justinfront_: I do think so, since Android is a mobile platform, you have to get "native" for the user experience to be good
(06:26:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: want to talk about haxigniter ?
(06:26:26 PM) Philippe_FD [n=Miranda@194.206.246.110] entered the room.
(06:26:46 PM) pimmhogeling: niel-grumpytoad, what's the scedule
(06:26:59 PM) [hx]Nicolas: ok now that we have said all theses bad things about FlashDevelop, Philippe is joining us :)
(06:27:02 PM) ciscoheat: I'm just looking for some thoughts, if you've tried it out and found something strange, something that should *really* be documented... things like that. :)
(06:27:13 PM) Huge: I had a quick look - I will be using it if I ever do a website again. A fastcgi front-end also looks trivial.
(06:27:49 PM) Juan__: what's the state of haxeigniter? is it being kept up-to-date with the official branch?
(06:27:59 PM) niel-grumpytoad: pimmhogeling: we're switching
(06:28:02 PM) Juan__: i used it time ago, but finally moved to cakephp
(06:28:17 PM) Juan__: i used the php version, i mean
(06:28:18 PM) Philippe_FD: wow there's a lot of people there :)
(06:28:20 PM) ciscoheat: It is very up-to-date, I push new features and changes almost every day.
(06:28:21 PM) niel-grumpytoad: What Code Conventions are available or desirable for Haxe ?
(06:28:34 PM) ceesam [n=cee@212-149-220-46.bb.dnainternet.fi] entered the room.
(06:28:40 PM) pimmhogeling: Indeed, do we need code conventions?
(06:28:41 PM) niel-grumpytoad: what standards are missing but wanted ?
(06:28:45 PM) pimmhogeling: And if yes, which ones?
(06:28:46 PM) Juan__: ciscoheat > good to know
(06:29:11 PM) fponticelli: when htemplate will become the official haxigniter template system?
(06:29:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: andreas > nice
(06:29:14 PM) EdoRivai: Conventions for class and interface names
(06:29:19 PM) niel-grumpytoad: are there licensing issues - haXe has different licenses on different parts of the code
(06:29:30 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes
(06:29:40 PM) EdoRivai: should an interface be named ICar or just Car
(06:29:45 PM) Huge: Naming convenetions are for java programmers :)
(06:29:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge> +1
(06:29:53 PM) pimmhogeling: haXe has different licensed, which is not a problem
(06:30:01 PM) pimmhogeling: Minus one
(06:30:04 PM) EdoRivai: -1
(06:30:06 PM) pimmhogeling: :)
(06:30:09 PM) jpsecher: or CAR
(06:30:13 PM) EdoRivai: (no smiley)
(06:30:23 PM) Skorps: about haxigniter, will neko be kept as a target ?
(06:30:25 PM) niel-grumpytoad: but in reality, dynamic linking between propriety code and the linux kernel also exists, so ... IMO licensing is still a bit too grey in practice
(06:30:38 PM) ciscoheat: Skorps: Absolutely
(06:30:49 PM) pimmhogeling: I disagree that it is too grey
(06:31:04 PM) pimmhogeling: The thing is, it is not clear which license we want to use for libraries
(06:31:06 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Skorps: I think it will
(06:31:33 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas chose a license that obligates us all to add attribution to our binaries, for instance, but I think that's not intentional
(06:32:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: should we switch all the standard library from BSD to Public Domain ?
(06:32:27 PM) [hx]Nicolas: anyone in the compiler team against it ?
(06:32:30 PM) Pignoufou: pimmhogeling: Why is it so bad anyway? Lots of applications nowadays depends on LGPL-ed programs for example
(06:32:48 PM) pimmhogeling: Pignoufou, I'm not saying it's bad
(06:32:49 PM) fponticelli: not me
(06:32:54 PM) canab [n=chatzill@95.69.210.208] entered the room.
(06:32:55 PM) Huge: There is also the issue of static-linking (iphone) the LGPL code from the standard libraries I copies from the neko base
(06:33:05 PM) pimmhogeling: I'm just saying we should think about what we want
(06:33:22 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > we could relicense Neko under LGPL with linking exception, that's what OCaml does for instance
(06:33:24 PM) pimmhogeling: We're all writing libraries, I am, fponticelli is, Dykam is
(06:33:30 PM) Huge: Nicolas, I'm a big fan of public domain or mit for my stuff
(06:33:37 PM) pimmhogeling: Huge, why?
(06:33:45 PM) jpsecher: the 2-clause BSD licenses says that attribution should be in "in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution."
(06:34:03 PM) pimmhogeling: I know
(06:34:10 PM) Huge: I get satisfaction from when my code is used, not when I obligate smeone to do something
(06:34:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Public domain or MIT for stdlib, any preference ?
(06:34:24 PM) tonypolinelli: i'd say mit - as it is actually more open than public domain as i understand
(06:34:26 PM) pimmhogeling: I don't think we should focus on which license we have now, I think we should focus on what we want to achieve
(06:34:28 PM) aho: i like 0-clause BSD aka "i don't give a f-"
(06:34:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I think we cannot define something for all the libraries on haxelib
(06:34:39 PM) pimmhogeling: tonypolinelli, I disagree, PD is more "open"
(06:34:46 PM) Pignoufou: Isn't Public Domain risky? Anyone could just ripoff your work and sell it without adding any plus-value to it
(06:34:50 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but we can do a change once for the std library
(06:34:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Pignoufou, PD can be risky, yes
(06:35:18 PM) Huge: I have hear there are some issues with pd - IANAL. MIT is pretty simple
(06:35:20 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, yes, and we can tell people that is the prefered license for all haXe libraries
(06:35:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: we're talking about std library here, compiler will remain GPL
(06:35:37 PM) jpsecher: ISC license is even simpler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license
(06:35:37 PM) pimmhogeling: Compiler should remain GPL in my opinion
(06:35:48 PM) Juan__: has everybody read the post by grant skinner about licenses?
(06:35:49 PM) Juan__: http://www.gskinner.com/blog/archives/2008/07/source_code_lic_1.html
(06:35:51 PM) [hx]Nicolas: there's not much use for the standard library without the compiler ;)
(06:36:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Juan__ > yes, it was quite narrow minded IMHO
(06:36:15 PM) Juan__: +1 for a GPL compiler
(06:36:16 PM) pimmhogeling: There is, as the standard lib/core lib could be compiled in another compiler
(06:36:25 PM) Juan__: it's a start : )
(06:36:37 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, keep the compiler GPL
(06:36:43 PM) Huge: My vote: compiler GPL, libraries mit (you can choose mit from the pick box on code.google.com)
(06:36:44 PM) Pignoufou: pimmhogeling: Not even necessarily in another one
(06:36:53 PM) pimmhogeling: But the second thing is, the compiler does not get included in our binaries
(06:36:59 PM) Pignoufou: One could sell a package, arguing that he sells the std library, not the compiler
(06:37:01 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge have a good point :)
(06:37:11 PM) Juan__: i actually read this book, which i highly recommend
(06:37:12 PM) Juan__: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596517960
(06:37:20 PM) Juan__: about open source and intellectual property
(06:37:22 PM) Pignoufou: I do agree that MIT is better
(06:37:54 PM) pimmhogeling: Huge, you could also pick X11/MIT if the license you're using is X11/MIT compatible
(06:37:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: let's not be paranoid, people can already sell haxe by just talking about it in the documentation as per current license ;)
(06:38:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Yup
(06:38:42 PM) [hx]Nicolas: so, if we keep the compiler GPL and move the std library to MIT, everyone is fine with that ?
(06:38:49 PM) stickupkid: +1
(06:38:51 PM) Philippe_FD: who would want to sell haxe?
(06:38:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Changing to X11/MIT does not really change anything
(06:38:59 PM) pedromoraes: +1
(06:39:00 PM) Huge: excellent
(06:39:06 PM) pimmhogeling: We would still have to attribute in our binaries
(06:39:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Philippe > the bad guys with solar glasses
(06:39:16 PM) Philippe_FD: +1 for GPL compiler and MIT libraries
(06:39:24 PM) pimmhogeling: X11/MIT is almost the same as the two-clause BSD license
(06:39:24 PM) fponticelli: +1
(06:39:27 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Yes I like that idea
(06:39:34 PM) Huge: nicolas - and neko too (or can I change the headers of the code I "borrowed")
(06:39:38 PM) [hx]Nicolas: really ?
(06:39:40 PM) pimmhogeling: Yup, sunglassed guys
(06:39:57 PM) [hx]Nicolas: wait a sec : does MIT requires code attribution as BSD does ?
(06:40:01 PM) Juan__: you guys mean Agent Smith is compiled in haxe? :P
(06:40:04 PM) pimmhogeling: Yes, [hx]Nicolas
(06:40:19 PM) Philippe_FD: I don't think MIT requires anything like that
(06:40:38 PM) niel-grumpytoad: (everyone runs off to read MIT license)
(06:40:42 PM) pimmhogeling: "The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software."
(06:41:11 PM) pimmhogeling: Doesn't mention anything about binaries not being a portion of the software
(06:41:35 PM) pimmhogeling: We could modify the X11/MIT license not to require it though, if that's what we want
(06:41:36 PM) Philippe_FD: yes you must keep the mentions if you take "substiantial portions" of the code
(06:41:45 PM) pimmhogeling: That's my big question: what do we want?
(06:41:45 PM) Philippe_FD: (in the code only)
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(06:42:16 PM) pimmhogeling: Philippe_FD, it doesn't say that, it says "included in all copies"
(06:42:22 PM) pimmhogeling: A binary is clearly a copy
(06:42:28 PM) jpsecher: no it is not
(06:42:39 PM) Huge: Yes, my intentions were keep the header in the code, do what you want with binary
(06:42:51 PM) pimmhogeling: Let's just say this: a judge could consider it a copy
(06:42:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: according to Wikipedia BSD-2 == MIT
(06:43:05 PM) pimmhogeling: There's no reason for us to assume (s)he'll not
(06:43:12 PM) JohnDG [n=johndg@c-71-237-70-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] entered the room.
(06:43:35 PM) [hx]Nicolas: now, we could do the following
(06:43:37 PM) pimmhogeling: "Yes, my intentions were keep the header in the code, do what you want with binary" is that what we want?
(06:43:42 PM) pimmhogeling: As library writers?
(06:43:55 PM) jpsecher: yes there is: a lot of projects, companies, etc has incorporated DSB-like code and are not getting suid by anyone
(06:44:06 PM) jpsecher: BSD
(06:44:12 PM) JohnDG: Hi guys, sorry I'm late. Food poisoning.
(06:44:24 PM) pimmhogeling: jpsecher, yes, most of the time because they comply with the license
(06:44:32 PM) [hx]Nicolas: make an official statement as std library writers and state that will not enforce our rights on the BSD advertising
(06:44:40 PM) pimmhogeling: If you buy an iPod, the license and copyright notices are in the book you get along with it
(06:45:17 PM) Huge: Yes, "BSD with attribution exception" would be fine
(06:45:22 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, we could also change the BSD/X11 (MIT) license a bit to say that
(06:45:34 PM) pimmhogeling: So we're looking at BSD with no attribution in the binaries?
(06:45:39 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I don't want to create another license, please :)
(06:45:50 PM) Huge: also zlib seems good because they explicitly differentiate between the final product and ambiguous "software"
(06:45:53 PM) Juan__: yes, creating new licenses is usually highly un-recommended
(06:45:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: there's already way too much of these
(06:46:10 PM) pimmhogeling: Adding an exception to a license is not considered writing a new license in most cases
(06:46:12 PM) Huge: http://www.gzip.org/zlib/zlib_license.html
(06:46:21 PM) pimmhogeling: Especially if it's an additional permission
(06:46:36 PM) niel-grumpytoad: JohnDG: I think there were some earlier questions about haxelib.. it's status and future - maybe you can say something about it
(06:47:18 PM) justinfront_: Not really an exception just a clarification on what is ment by copy? you can just add it underneath?
(06:47:19 PM) Huge: still awake, tony?
(06:47:35 PM) tonypolinelli: ...just....
(06:47:36 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, if we'd use the MIT/X11 license with an additional permission, it would be considered MIT/X11, not a new license
(06:47:50 PM) pimmhogeling: justinfront_, yes, we could do that as well
(06:47:55 PM) pimmhogeling: That's just details
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(06:48:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: tony > licensing wars at 3am, you're not lucky :)
(06:48:34 PM) tonypolinelli: good point hugh- night all 3:50 actually
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(06:48:52 PM) pimmhogeling: But let's ask this to anyone writing haXe libraries
(06:48:56 PM) JohnDG: niel: Blackdog, dg, and myself have devoted some effort to producing a new version of haxelib. It takes haxelib into the direction of a package manager. It makes it easy to submit libraries, supports custom repos, password reminders, clean file format, etc.
(06:48:58 PM) pimmhogeling: Would such a license suit you guys?
(06:49:28 PM) fponticelli: pimm, it is ok for me
(06:49:49 PM) slaskis: JohnDG: awesome!
(06:49:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I want something simple, without exceptions or other things of the kind if possible
(06:50:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > we talked a bit about it before
(06:50:44 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree
(06:50:49 PM) pimmhogeling: (with [hx]Nicolas)
(06:51:19 PM) pimmhogeling: But if that means we'll obligate our users to do things we don't want to obligate, then we should consider adding an additional permission
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(06:51:25 PM) pimmhogeling: It's pretty common, I must say
(06:51:37 PM) pimmhogeling: A lot of projects use licenses, but add additional permissions
(06:52:09 PM) Huge: So maybe zlib or PD
(06:52:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I can understand, but that also makes things more complex than they should. What about PublicDomain ?
(06:52:20 PM) niel-grumpytoad: JohnDG: 2010-01-28 17:10:01 zjnue also, will there ba an official place for libs outside of public/bsd/lgpl ? like extern ports for say puremvc. where should there go with new haxelib options?
(06:52:21 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I'm fine with ZLIB also
(06:52:26 PM) pimmhogeling: Public Domain is risky, as mentioned
(06:52:32 PM) justinfront_: If you send it out as a maillist then any ports can report if they will have problems switching licences that the only issue maybe
(06:52:50 PM) jpsecher: AFAIK, there is no such thing as PD in Europe
(06:53:17 PM) waneck: what's the risk with PD if the libs can only be used along with the haXe compiler?
(06:53:18 PM) pimmhogeling: But now that we know which direction we want to go, we could discuss the details on the mailing list
(06:53:23 PM) JohnDG: The new haxelib is called "Haxed" and will be released early next week. But something the community needs to decide is whether to continue to use the current haxelib, or go with the new haxelib.
(06:53:25 PM) [hx]Nicolas: right, especially in France since we cannot relinquish our writers rights
(06:53:28 PM) pimmhogeling: Are there any other things on the scedule, niel-grumpytoad?
(06:54:14 PM) justinfront_: can the libs be automatically transfered.. and a cross over period?
(06:54:26 PM) pimmhogeling: [hx]Nicolas, right, here we can only release works under PD in exceptional situations
(06:54:35 PM) slaskis: JohnDG: i'd say push the new one with the next version of haxe (2.0.6? or perhaps 2.1?)
(06:54:47 PM) niel-grumpytoad: pimmhogeling: only final questions... I think we can wrap things up otherwise
(06:55:06 PM) pimmhogeling: Code conventions?
(06:55:10 PM) justinfront_: john> can the libs be automatically transfered.. and a cross over period?
(06:55:12 PM) Juan__: anybody fancies about the whole hippo / waxe / air / stuff?
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(06:55:47 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > my stand was to add haxe Remoting JSON support so we can keep typed client/server calls
(06:56:06 PM) Huge: Writing a "SWF widget" from waxe should not be too hard - not sure about all the platforms, though.
(06:56:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > and think which file format we can have as a standard for HXP files
(06:57:06 PM) Juan__: huge, how can you think you can go without the player? would you be able to cover the Flash API with neash + nme?
(06:57:16 PM) Juan__: how far, i mean
(06:57:51 PM) Huge: you should be able to get a game going - not too sure about a full gui
(06:58:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: which are the main missing APIs ?
(06:58:13 PM) Huge: I think the main issue is the flex mxml stufff e be implementeds
(06:58:33 PM) [hx]Nicolas: (apart from flex)
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(06:58:37 PM) Juan__: umm, but that would be out of scope, id say
(06:58:45 PM) fponticelli: (once more we need a unified cross-platform GUI)
(06:58:57 PM) justinfront_: yep
(06:59:08 PM) Huge: If the scope is keps small, neash should be able to do it
(06:59:11 PM) JohnDG: haXe remoting makes it difficult to make JavaScript clients; the file format is very clean and supports many features the old haxelib does not. That said, the project is open source and anyone can contribute patches, but by next week, the project will be sufficiently developed that we think the community will benefit from Haxed in its present form. Of course, people will add more features with time.
(06:59:20 PM) Huge: I dont really have the time fore "100% coverage"
(06:59:25 PM) zjnue: prelim flex support here, maybe code share: http://osflash.org/pipermail/osflash_osflash.org/2010-January/017078.html
(06:59:37 PM) niel-grumpytoad: fponticelli: it's a bit difficult to get the performance right across platforms
(06:59:44 PM) zjnue: from lightspark open source flash player
(06:59:45 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > the idea is to use the haXe remoting API with is standard in haXe but together with the JSON protocol
(06:59:48 PM) Juan__: zjnue > what happened to xinf?
(07:00:01 PM) fponticelli: niel, it is ... nevertheless you can't ignore the wow factor
(07:00:05 PM) JohnDG: fponticelli: Isn't there a Flash library emulator for most platforms? Stumbled across it on Google code I think.
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(07:00:11 PM) zjnue: don;t ask me, or well. i've been bad, but not skilled for non-flash targets
(07:00:22 PM) niel-grumpytoad: especially event handling is quite different on each platform , and can cause much memory loss
(07:00:42 PM) Juan__: zjnue > just asking : )
(07:00:48 PM) zjnue: ;)
(07:00:49 PM) justinfront_: hsl for events?
(07:00:52 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Huge > could you maintain something like a compatibility list API per API and method per method so people can have a look at what works very well, partially or not at all ? Will be a good ground for submissions ;)
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(07:00:58 PM) pimmhogeling: HSL is awesome! :)
(07:01:08 PM) EdoRivai: HSL FTW!!
(07:01:14 PM) JohnDG: Nicolas, does haXe remoting support JSON presently?
(07:01:24 PM) fponticelli: emulator doesn't sound good ... and if you have flex on top of the flash api on top of an emulator I am not sure it is a good receipt ... without taking into account that using flex in haxe is still far from being an easy feat
(07:01:39 PM) pimmhogeling: Quick update, draft 3 of HSL is usable, and super stable (and way better than draft 1 and draft 2)
(07:01:40 PM) Huge: Nicolas, yes. I've started with flash.graphics mainly, and added events and some other stuff "as needed"
(07:01:45 PM) zjnue: how similar is HSL to robber penner's signals lib? http://github.com/robertpenner/as3-signals
(07:01:54 PM) fponticelli: Huge, such a list would help a lot
(07:02:13 PM) pimmhogeling: zjnue, it is similar to it, but uses some haXe-specific features, and is easier to use
(07:02:15 PM) niel-grumpytoad: we could try to make hxgui cross-platform using neash
(07:02:15 PM) [hx]Nicolas: John > no but should be pretty easy to add, you just need to implement haxe.remoting.Connection interface, see how it's done for other protocols
(07:02:18 PM) Huge: The exact list is something I should work on - but so many ideas, so little time
(07:02:33 PM) zjnue: pimmhogeling > great :)
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(07:02:50 PM) pimmhogeling: zjnue, it is, I'm currently writing documentation and examples
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(07:03:09 PM) justinfront_: neash is inheritance based?
(07:03:21 PM) pimmhogeling: BTW If anyone has any suggestions for documentation for and examples of HSL, I'd love to hear it
(07:03:29 PM) Huge: If you defined a whole new API, you would keep the work limites, and I would be comfortable supporting the sub-set of calls.
(07:03:41 PM) justinfront_: have you put it in that code for me ;)
(07:04:05 PM) waneck: HSL is really great... I really like the way that all events are type-checked
(07:04:18 PM) [hx]Nicolas: indeed, but someone need global vision in order to have a xplatform API that works well
(07:04:27 PM) Huge: justing - the neash inheritance follows the flash inheritance
(07:04:51 PM) heinz: @hugh: maybe i can find the time to contribute in a few months, but currently i'm totally out of time because of my study
(07:04:53 PM) justinfront_: yes that was the point I was making... maybe that is not good for cross platform.
(07:04:55 PM) waneck: the main problem is that is a little confusing at first - mainly for the whole signaler part....
(07:05:17 PM) justinfront_: i mean neash is maybe nearly there but
(07:05:19 PM) waneck: i still don't know what it does, jsut use the DirectSignaler all the time
(07:05:36 PM) JohnDG: Neash has no JS layer, does it?
(07:05:44 PM) pimmhogeling: Signaler is an interface, DirectSignaler is an implementation of that interface (waneck)
(07:05:45 PM) justinfront_: canvas
(07:06:01 PM) Huge: JS has not had a lot of love lately
(07:06:10 PM) Juan__: maybe keeping the as3 API is not the best for cross-platform-ness but makes supporting different platforms SO much easier (from a dev point of view)
(07:06:17 PM) Philippe_FD: ah about JS...
(07:06:30 PM) waneck: i see, but I don't really see what good would it make to implement such interface... maybe it could be a little more direct
(07:06:31 PM) Huge: I'm also re-writing NME to make neash a thinner layer for performance reasons
(07:06:58 PM) [hx]Nicolas: good
(07:07:09 PM) fponticelli: Nicolas, could it be possible to have using methods have precedence over private methods?
(07:07:12 PM) pimmhogeling: waneck, the NullSignaler and the TranslatingSignaler
(07:07:22 PM) pimmhogeling: I'll show you an example if you want to
(07:07:47 PM) waneck: pimm > it would be great! I'll help in the documentation, then.
(07:07:49 PM) [hx]Nicolas: franco > only private is not very easy
(07:08:00 PM) pimmhogeling: waneck, I have your e-mail address, right?
(07:08:04 PM) JohnDG: The way to make something like Neash is to first come up with a low-level "primitives" routines, for example, something like JS Canvas + Sound + Network. This should be the cross-platform low-level layer. The Flash API is then built on top the lower layer.
(07:08:04 PM) waneck: right!
(07:08:16 PM) JohnDG: Thus to add support for a new target, one needs only to implement the low-level primitives.
(07:08:24 PM) fponticelli: Nicolas, having that could make a nice trick with friend types
(07:08:26 PM) JohnDG: Will cut down on the duplication across the neko/C++ targets.
(07:08:31 PM) [hx]Nicolas: What about making an OS in haXe :)
(07:08:40 PM) niel-grumpytoad: no js-neash had some problematic performance problems, so it's unfortunately not being updated
(07:08:47 PM) fponticelli: HaXeOS, sounds good ;)
(07:08:53 PM) pimmhogeling: Minus one, lol
(07:08:57 PM) zjnue: nicolas, oshx.org .com was available last time i checked ;)
(07:08:57 PM) Huge: JohnDG, that was the separation between neash/NME
(07:09:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: franco > I see
(07:09:15 PM) Huge: NME was a thin layer on SDL. Now I've sort of changed that :)
(07:09:30 PM) JohnDG: Huge, looking at Neash source code base, I see lots of hard coded preprocessor directives for the platform.
(07:10:28 PM) Huge: Mainly because on flash, you don't need to do anything. JS was a bit different.
(07:10:32 PM) JohnDG: One would need a canvas abstraction, sound abstraction, network abstraction, and perhaps timing abstraction, in order to build the Flash API.
(07:10:56 PM) JohnDG: In fact, this strikes me as a good project for "haxe std lib 2.0"
(07:11:17 PM) Huge: THe problems with abstractions are performance and lowest-common-denominators.
(07:11:18 PM) JohnDG: Build all the above into the std lib in a cross-platform way. Then a community project could build Flash API on top of that.
(07:11:29 PM) justinfront_: graphics cross platform what I asked about last time :)
(07:12:12 PM) niel-grumpytoad: the main problem with JS-NME/neash is the regular timer that calls ENTER_FRAME - if the garbage collector kicks in you get a nice pause
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(07:12:44 PM) Huge: Seems JS performance has moved quite a bit in the last year
(07:13:01 PM) stickupkid: V8 seems to be leading this at the moment
(07:13:02 PM) Huge: and now you can "demo on the iphone" for the wow factor, it may be worth another think
(07:13:28 PM) justinfront_: if you use php can it help the js?
(07:13:29 PM) JohnDG: JS performance is on par with Flash
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(07:14:52 PM) Huge: The JS flash player that has been getting attention must have done some kind of "jsash" project to get a similat API.
(07:15:46 PM) Huge: So you could write an indepent flash API in JS, I've got one for neko/c++/iphone and one comes for free in flash, so you would have you cross platform graphics api
(07:16:44 PM) waneck: Yeah, but js works differently from flash... specially if we're thinking on ie compatibility
(07:16:57 PM) Huge: I guess I'm saying that the abstractions are already there - just look in the flash doco. You do not need to think about "what messaging should I use", the decision has already been made.
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(07:17:11 PM) Philippe_FD: IMHO I don't think a Flash API is JS is a great idea - each platform needs a specific treatment
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(07:17:23 PM) waneck: maybe we could pull up a html-kind of api (like adobe did with hxml)...
(07:17:28 PM) JohnDG [n=johndg@c-71-237-70-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net] entered the room.
(07:17:54 PM) waneck: and like (correct me if i'm wrong) haxegui is making...
(07:17:59 PM) Huge: well, I think that might be me for the night.....
(07:18:11 PM) pedromoraes: Huge: if you mean Gordon it doesnt implement a AS interpreter in javascript yet. the guy plans to do an AS2 vm soon.
(07:18:33 PM) justinfront_: flash player 2 or something
(07:18:34 PM) pedromoraes: I think Philippe is right
(07:19:04 PM) Huge: If you write in haxe, you don't need such code contortions :)
(07:19:43 PM) justinfront_: components structures should be cross platform, implementation can vary
(07:20:07 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Huge: the js-nme idea could work out a lot better if worker-threads are implemented cross-browser
(07:20:32 PM) niel-grumpytoad: that way, some of the more resource-intensive ops can be moved into a separate thread
(07:20:51 PM) Huge: I guess it's safari we are really thinking about
(07:21:28 PM) niel-grumpytoad: not sure, need to read up on it a bit better
(07:21:35 PM) Huge: bye
(07:21:44 PM) niel-grumpytoad: later
(07:21:48 PM) Huge left the room (quit: ).
(07:21:58 PM) Philippe_FD: the discussion seems very *game oriented*
(07:22:07 PM) Philippe_FD: I have nothing about games of course
(07:22:18 PM) iain: Nicolas: are there any docs/usage example for format.swf?
(07:22:20 PM) [hx]Nicolas: are there other questions ?
(07:22:28 PM) EdoRivai: It was fun listening to you guys, but I'm going.
(07:22:29 PM) pimmhogeling: I agree with EdoRivai, and I'll go too
(07:22:37 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Check http://lib.haxe.org/d/format
(07:23:06 PM) iain: there is no swf tag there?
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(07:23:30 PM) EdoRivai: Guys, check the meeting page on the haxe site. Pimm and I have taken notes.
(07:23:46 PM) iain: i should be able to figure out most of it from the source.. all i want to do is open an swf, insert some binary data and write it back
(07:24:07 PM) heinz: are there any plans or ideas about using the same application-domain (parent domains would be enough) for different haxe-swfs
(07:24:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: BTW everybody which have haxelib libraries can submit them with an haxedoc.xml to have online documentation, see http://haxe.org/com/haxelib for details
(07:24:41 PM) iain: oh sorry, didn't click on the 'format' link
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(07:25:23 PM) [hx]Nicolas: heinz > we could add again the "trick" before 2.04
(07:25:30 PM) [hx]Nicolas: but that's not a serious fix
(07:25:53 PM) niel-grumpytoad: Think we can close the meeting unless there are some more pressing comments
(07:25:53 PM) iain: i done some investigation on the 16mb binary limit.. turns out ocaml binary Buffer only supports up to the maximum string length on the platform (16mb on 32bit)
(07:25:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: the issue is that Flash consider two classes with the same name to be the same :'(
(07:25:57 PM) waneck: that would be nice!
(07:26:06 PM) justinfront_: could you document it and have it as a compiler option?
(07:26:29 PM) [hx]Nicolas: iain > will try a fix somewhere
(07:26:56 PM) [hx]Nicolas: justin> yes, fill an issue on googlecode for it
(07:27:12 PM) heinz: is there also a problem if you create a new application domain with the current as it's parent?
(07:27:27 PM) iain: thanks, its not majorly important - i just need >16mb temporarily so i can try to work around with format.swf
(07:27:34 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I think the issue is the same
(07:27:48 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I don't remember exactly what is the difference between the two
(07:28:05 PM) [hx]Nicolas: iain > swfmill should also be able to do it
(07:28:26 PM) heinz: and where exactly lies the problem if the boot class gets a random name?
(07:28:48 PM) [hx]Nicolas: for instance, flash.Lib.current will not be correctly set
(07:28:59 PM) justinfront_: Nicholas did you see the cross e4x on the forum
(07:29:05 PM) iain: i did try adding Rope.Buffer (which 'ties' strings together), and to my surprise it compiled with less than 16mb. however greater than 16mb it still needed to convert the Rope to a string which failed
(07:29:13 PM) waneck: Nicolas, any reason why haxe.magic.Proxy got out off future haxe features?
(07:29:14 PM) [hx]Nicolas: and Type API will not work in loaded SWF
(07:30:02 PM) justinfront_: oleg suggested this for e4x http://code.google.com/p/e4xu/source/browse/trunk/haxe/src/org/wvxvws/xml/W.hx
(07:30:10 PM) [hx]Nicolas: waneck > can't remember, maybe na not so good idea ? or hard to implement
(07:31:16 PM) [hx]Nicolas: justin>love the package name :)
(07:31:20 PM) heinz: ok, but if you use the loaded swf as an class-library, and you instantiate these classes from the main-swf that shouldn't be a problem
(07:31:23 PM) iain: i did use samhaxe to make a separate swf, but of course adding this swf to the main haxe-generated swf puts me back to square one (content swf is >16mb)
(07:32:11 PM) [hx]Nicolas: heinz > yes, there are cases in which it works well enough ;)
(07:32:43 PM) justinfront_: Nicholas he shows its use here... http://haxe.org/forum/thread/1144 but I wondered if it could be made cleaner and added to haxe probably not?
(07:32:44 PM) waneck: Nicolas > ok... I just have to say it was a great idea!!! Specially if one could make a Proxy<T> extends T, implements Proxy, implements Generic
(07:32:46 PM) iain: heinz: how do i add the content/main swf to the loader swf without going past 16mb?
(07:32:56 PM) heinz: so i think the hack should be implemented ;)
(07:33:50 PM) [hx]Nicolas: I guess you could do something like haxe.xml.Fast which allow filters
(07:33:54 PM) Exey: It's Oleg's nickname "wvxvws" :)
(07:34:01 PM) heinz: i don't know, i would load it on runtime
(07:34:13 PM) [hx]Nicolas: Proxy<T> extends T is not a planned feature ;)
(07:34:37 PM) zjnue: Nicolas, would it be difficult to expose all Types info on a static var somewhere, even if it bloats binary size, as a compiler flag option ?
(07:34:39 PM) iain: yea, looks like it'll have to be runtime
(07:34:42 PM) waneck: Nicolas > actually in my case it would be for a query system for a fully haXe odms
(07:35:08 PM) dazKind [n=Michael@HSI-KBW-091-089-173-198.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] entered the room.
(07:35:13 PM) waneck: Nicolas > oh, that's what I thought!
(07:35:30 PM) waneck: I think I'll use the prototype hack on platforms that allow it...
(07:36:12 PM) [hx]Nicolas: anyway, have to go soon :)
(07:36:46 PM) justinfront_: Ok well I am going to add this full transcript to the forum.
(07:36:51 PM) niel-grumpytoad: thanks for making it, hope we can have you here again soon...
(07:36:55 PM) [hx]Nicolas: next meeting should be hosted on haxe.org with a nice haXe-based chat ;)
